Reduced fuel tuning

Downey

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Is it possible to reduce a 190/75 injector to tow more like a 190/30 injector? Will a ficm tuner with custom tunes help? There is no real good info about reduced fuel tuning for the 6.0s. Can someone teach us. I know there is a 7.3 thread. Just curious if we could have some info like that but for the 6.0 guys.


Thanks
 

6.0 Tech

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75s are a pretty big nozzle to tune back. I have fuel pulled out of my 30s to not smoke in my daily tune, but it also runs just fine on no tune. I dont know if 75s would be able to do that. I aint a tuner though...
 

Jeremy @ No Limit

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Charlie can chime in with his knowledge but basically you can adjust tuning to account for the CC size but not nozzles really. For example, you can make a 285/100 fuel just like a 190/100 easily. But you can't make a 285/100 fuel and tow like a 285/30. You can pull PW back and raise ICP as much as possible but the nozzle holes are still big now matter how you look at it.
I'll get Charlie in here....
 

KCTurbos

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Charlie can chime in with his knowledge but basically you can adjust tuning to account for the CC size but not nozzles really. For example, you can make a 285/100 fuel just like a 190/100 easily. But you can't make a 285/100 fuel and tow like a 285/30. You can pull PW back and raise ICP as much as possible but the nozzle holes are still big now matter how you look at it.
I'll get Charlie in here....

Jeremy basically hit the nail on the head.


The first number is your "cc" that the injector holds. This is the TOP END limit on a race tune. This number will really not matter on a reduced fuel tow tune because you will not be able to completely empty the injector on a tow tune.


The second number is your nozzle size. That is how fast fuel gets dumped. This will determine low end fueling.


So like Jeremy said. 205/30 will run EXACTLY like 155/30 on a tow tune. But 205/30 will make WAY more power on a race tune.
 

KCTurbos

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Also... it is hard to "pull fuel" down low with 6.0 because we don't have access to the PW tables to pull back on fuel. It is hard to get 75% nozzles to run as clean as 30% nozzles down low because of this.


The best way to pull fuel down low would be to run the PHP econo FICM tuner paired with a good SCT reduced fuel tow tune.
 

Downey

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So it could tow max with a good ficm tune and custom tune with 190/75?

Realisticly. How much more hp are you going to pick up on a 75% nozzle vs a 30%?
 

Jeremy @ No Limit

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It would depend on the CC size. I believe Charlie has proven that a 30% nozzle will dump 190cc of fuel. Once you go above 200cc you want to look into either a 50% or 75% nozzle. And so on.
 

Chatham036

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it is hard to "pull fuel" down low with 6.0 because we don't have access to the PW tables to pull back on fuel. .

Who is this "we" you speak of? :redspotdance:


_______

I completely agree with Jeremy and Charlie thus far FWIW
 

Chatham036

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This is a topic that I have battled with since I began tuning 7.3 liter PowerStrokes. At some point, someone posted online that you can have large 100 % - 200 % nozzles while maintaining the ability to tow heavy simply by having your tuner “detune” the truck. What I am frequently encountering, people believe that “detune” means we can adjust the rate of flow & atomization of fuel down to that of a stock nozzle. I can’t. No tuner can. If they tell you that they can, they are simply full of ****.

The easiest way I can explain this within an example is to compare a stage two - 180cc / 100 % against the characteristics of a Stage 1 – 180cc / 0 %.

The injector pulsewidth (PW) is a measurement for how long the injector is spraying fuel into the cylinder. Our goal as tuners is to match the desired pulsewidth duration to the depletion rate of the injector. Depletion rate is the amount of time it takes to empty the entire displacement of the injector.

A Stage 2 – 180cc / 100 % injector, it is capable of spraying all 180cc of fuel in an injection window of just 2.6 ms PW.
A Stage 1 – 180cc / 0 % injector, it is capable of injecting all 180 cc of fuel at 3.5 ms PW.

As a general statement, the amount of power your truck is capable for has to do with the amount of fuel injected. So if you are able to inject 180cc of fuel, you will have around 380 - 420 rwhp out of a tune which fully depletes the injector. I know someone will say “but a Stage 2 builds more power”, and they would not be incorrect. But what people do not pay attention to is the amount of torque you sacrifice to build that little bit of extra power.

For those that do not know where hp / torque comes from in relation to the injection cycle, I will try to briefly explain it so we can move on to the next point.
As the piston raises, the fuel will start injecting pre-top dead center (TDC). This is your measurement for timing advance. As the piston crosses the point for TDC, the explosion of energy that bursts the piston downward is where your horse power comes from.
The force that continues push the injector downward is what creates your torque.

image024.jpg


You will only gain 10 – 15 rwhp when going to a stage two injector. This is because the higher injector flow rate of the injector is able to inject a greater amount of fuel before the piston is at top dead center giving the piston a greater push on the decent of the stroke. The point that is often overlooked is the continual push of the piston downward which creates your torque. Since the Stage 2 injector will deplete at 2.6 ms PW and .8 ms of that injection window was pre-TDC, you only have 1.8 ms of driving force to continue to push the piston down with a stage 2.

Now compare that to a stage one injector that has a depletion rate of 3.5 ms PW. You now increase the duration of the driving force to generate torque up to 2.7 ms (holding timing advance constant at .8 ms). This is one of the reasons that you will find stage one injectors pushing around 50 lb ft of torque greater than a stage two injector.

______

When we attempt to “detune” an injector, the main thing we are able to do as tuners is to reduce the amount of fuel injected into the cylinder. We do this by trimming the pulsewidth down to a shorter injection window. The thing that we face is the larger nozzle does not atomize fuel as well as a factory nozzle will causing the injection of larger droplets of fuel. Fuel burn rate is directly related to the amount of surface area where the particles of fuel contact air. Smaller droplets of fuel (smaller nozzles) atomize the fuel better causing a higher surface area for the fuel to react to air. This causes a more efficient burn. More efficient burn = lower exhaust gas temperatures (EGT).

The rule of thumb that I use when recommending injector size to people is strictly based off the amount of weight they plan to tow with the truck or if they do not tow, what their horsepower goal is. Since I can not find a good conclusive list for injector size, I feel this is as good a place as any. This is just a guideline. There are many factors that come into consideration such as turbo size, compound turbos, nitrous, etc. This list does not apply to those guys but if they are building that type of power, they already know this information.

I pulled this off a post I wrote on another forum. It is in regards to the 7.3 injector but the knowledge is transferable given they are both HEUI injection motors. The displacement / nozzle sizes are a little different but this should work well enough to show proof of concept.
 

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