Stage 2 vs 2.5 vs 3 VGT Turbos (Barder or KC)

BlueFordExcursion

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I'm running a powermax but its time to upgrade to better match my Swamp's 170/50's and DieselSite HPOP. Daily diver, family hauler, twice a year sled puller.

Can someone explain the pros and cons of the Stage 2.0, 2.5, and 3.0 turbos from Barder of KC. Leave price out please.

Thanks
 

valvetick

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I'm running a powermax but its time to upgrade to better match my Swamp's 170/50's and DieselSite HPOP. Daily diver, family hauler, twice a year sled puller.

Can someone explain the pros and cons of the Stage 2.0, 2.5, and 3.0 turbos from Barder of KC. Leave price out please.

Thanks

This may not help but I just ordered a kc68 and Charlie has been great to deal with probably some of the best customer service I have seen he was helping me with questions I had on things that had nothing to do with his turbo but he was happy to help and the turbo was done in a few days. Injectors on the other hand took way longer.....
 

KCTurbos

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Well why don't you tell us a little more about your setup. We might be able to help point you in the right direction.

Are you running a billet wheel?
What are your max WOT egts?
Does your truck run really smokey under WOT once the turbo spools?
Why r you switching? Smoke? EGTS? Drive ability? Etc?
Do you tow?
How heavy do you tow?
Is your truck lifted?
What size tires?
What gear ratio?


Which turbo I would recommend will come down to how you answer the questions above.


KC TURBO OPTIONS

Stage 1.5 Turbo (AKA Street/Tow) – 63.5x88mm single plane billet wheel with extended tips, .72ar race compressor cover, 72.5x66 13 blade turbine wheel, new high flowing billet vanes, stainless steel unison ring, and upgraded 360 thrust bearing. Recommended for stock – 175cc injectors (will run smoky on 175s with a race tune)

Stage 2 Turbo (AKA Extreme Street/ Light Tow) – 64x88mm single plane billet wheel with extended tips, .72ar race compressor cover, 72.5x66 10 blade turbine wheel, and upgraded 360 thrust bearing. Recommended for 155cc – 190cc injectors (will run smoky on 190s with a race tune)

Stage 3 Turbo (AKA Extreme Street/Race) – 67.8x94mm single plane billet wheel with extended tips to 100mm, .72ar race compressor cover, 74x70 gt40 10 blade turbine wheel, new high flowing billet vanes, stainless steel unison ring, and upgraded 360 thrust bearing. Recommended for 175 – 205cc injectors (will run smoky on 205s with a race tune)



Everyone has their own opinions.... but these are mine with regards to how these turbos compare with your current setup.

The stage 1.5 is very close in size to the powermax but it runs a 13 bladed turbine instead of a 10 bladed turbine. This turbo size is meant for those who are not looking to make big power, but just want a good all around versatile turbo. It will spool up SUPER faster and keep cruising, towing, and daily driving egts right where you want them. The downside of the 13 blade turbine is that it does not have the top end flowing capabilities of the 10 bladed wheels so the power will be lacking in the high rpms. With your current setup you should see an increase in spool up, but you will lose a little top end power.


The stage 2 and and a billet powermax are VERY VERY VERY close in size. I would venture to say that there would be little to no difference on the track depending on which billet wheel you have (there are many different sizes of pmax billet wheels). If you are unahappy with a billet pmax... then a stage 2 turbo is not going to make that big of a difference. They share the same turbine wheel, vanes, center section, compressor inducer, etc... the only difference is some "stage 2 turbos" have a VERY VERY minimal increase on the inducer size. It is basically the smallest turbo upgrade possible. There is a bigger difference between a 2004 stock turbo vs 2007 stock turbo (and most people don't notice any difference).

That is not to say that the stage 2 turbo is a bad turbo by any means... It is an AWESOME upgrade for anyone with a stock turbo. But IMO it is not worth the time and/or effort for someone already have a good running a billet pmax. If you are in need of a rebuild then it is a good small upgrade. If you have a good running cast wheeled pmax, then you might want to try installing a billet wheel to see how you like it. The stage 2 is a middle of the road turbo for those with medium size injectors that are not looking to win any races, but are still looking for some of that top end power.


KC turbos does not offer a stage 2.5 anymore. There was just not enough difference between a stage 2 and stage 3 to justify a difference in size. Some guys bought it hoping for a slightly upgraded stage 2 and felt like it had too many attributes of a stage 3 turbo, which disappointed them because they were really looking for a slightly better stage 2 turbo.


The Stage 3 will clean up 175cc injectors to nothing... not even a faint haze. It should drive pretty well on the streets and have tons of top end power. During most daily driving situations you will not notice very much of a difference in spool up between the stage 2 and stage 3. You will notice it more when the tq converter is locked up in OD at lower rpms. You will also notice that the stage 3 runs slightly higher cruising egts (like 800-900) vs stage 2 (750-850). That is just because a bigger turbo will not run as well at lower rpms causing higher egts... but it will have cooler egts at the higher rpms during a hard WOT situation.


I hope that answers some of your questions
 

BlueFordExcursion

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Awesome answer! Thanks!

Here are few details about my rig:

Running Gear:
4" lift, 35" tires, 4:30 gears

Engine:
-Head studs, deleted, 4" turbo back, PowerMax, IDP SCT and FICM tunes, Driven Diesel Reg Return, Airdog 100, Swamps 170/50, Snow Stage 2. (Just released DieselSite late-style HPOP pump going in next week)

Trans:
DPC triple, billet input, Reds & Kolenes

Dyno: 460hp fuel, 480hp 20% Water/Meth

Towing: Not much now, want to have capability to tow up to 8,000lbs if need be.

Cruise RPM at 70mph, 2250
EGTs 700 to 900 cruising at 70mph
EGTs WOT no water - 1550 to 1600 peak, then down to 13/1400

Smoke:
Street drag: starts smokey, cleans up a little higher up in RPMs
Sled pull: smokes like a freight train

Goal:
Reliable running family hauler that has the ability to lay down some seriously pain when need be! Its hard enoungh being an Excursion at a work stock sled pull, let alone a 6 liter too! Work stock cummins I can smoke...but those damn Duramax's running EFILive, arrrgghhh. I need more power Scottie!
 

KCTurbos

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^^^^ what he said???

Some work stock class turbos limit to a 2.5" inducer which equates to about a 64mm turbo. A 68mm would be too big for most "work stock" class turbos.


Also do you know if you currently have a billet wheel?
 

BlueFordExcursion

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Interesting Q, 05wh250...no one real question's me as I dont pull for points and I am excursion. I have to remove the 3rd row seat, spare tire, and I have to be at 1/3 a tank of fuel and even then I am between 8,500 and 8,600 lbs. The other drivers always just let me pull. That being said, the Stage 2 or 3 turbos being talked about here, would they not pass for stock appearing turbos? Also, what is the inducer bore of a stage 2 or 3? Isnt that how they measure the 2.6 and 3.0 classes?
 

BlueFordExcursion

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I have an "stock" powermax that is 3 years old...that means cast or billet? Thanks for answering my other question.

Another question...can I still use my stock aircleaner with a Stage 2 or 3? Will the diameter of the plastic tube connect to the intake of these turbos? Also, will the exhaust output be the same? What about the compressed side of the turbo...will that match up to stock sized boots?

Also, a 68mm is a Stage 3 right?
 

05wh250

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Your stock powermax would have a cast wheel.

Pretty sure you can use the stock air cleaner on them all. I ran an s&b with my barder 68 until last weekend and it restricted it, but it ran good with my billet wheeled powermax.
 

BlueFordExcursion

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I am thinking I will run the stock air cleaner for normal driving and then swap it out when wanting to go play. What filter are you now using if the S&B restricted flow?
 

05wh250

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I swapped it out for a No Limit Fabrication, dropped egt's 30-50 degrees daily driving, about the same idling.

If you buy another one i would just run it all the time instead of swapping them all the time.
 

KCTurbos

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2.5 stock class is usually limited to a 63.5mm turbo (which is the same size as your pmax). Your pmax came with a stock cast wheel (unless it has been upgraded). If you are looking a the best bang for your buck... then I would add a billet wheel to your turbo and see how you like it.

A billet wheel will increase power, decrease egts, and make the truck spool quicker. There is basically no downsides to running a billet wheel. They are also easy to install.
 

KCTurbos

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Does adding a billet wheel require rebalancing? Also, who's wheel do you recommend...or do you have one of your own?

A billet wheel does not "require" balancing. But it is a good idea. I would say 90% of people who install billet wheels do not balance the turbo and I have never heard of a failure. Your turbo is currently balanced and the wheel you buy will come "component balanced"

You have a PM coming your way
 

sootie

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if you do a billet wheel swap, get it balanced.

also, x2 on the No Limit Fabrication intake. money well spent
 

BlueFordExcursion

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Thanks for all the replys. I'm not yet sold on the billet wheel in my Pmax, but i will think about it. Basically the only upgrade is to move to a Stage 3 then, right?

I see 10lbs of boost crusing on the highway at 70mpgs with 2250 rpms given my tires and 4:30 gears. How would the Stage 3 like this? Also, how much could a tuner tune the lagginess out of of a Stage 3 (vane control, down shifts, TQ unlocking, etc...)?

How "bad" is the stage 3 for a family hauler? Can I drive my way around the smoke and lag?
 

05wh250

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I daily drive my harder stage 3 with no smoke. The biggest thing is taking it easy on takeoff until you get used to it.

Using gear head for tuning.
 

KCTurbos

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Most people with "stage 3" turbos report higher cruising egts, slight hazing under some driving conditions, and it will blow smoke for a few seconds when getting on it really hard when under the turbo.

Tuning can and will definitely help. Rolling into the throttle will help also. Vane control does help. There are also other supporting mods than can help increase airflow that help. But there is no way around it... Bigger turbos build more power but come on later int he rpms, smaller turbos make less power but come on earlier in the rpms band.

You might also see slightly lower cruising PSI depending on the tune/setup/speed etc



The stage 3 is awesome and a lot of fun. But it will move your power up in the RPM band. So you will lose a little bit on the bottom end in some driving conditions which can lead to some hazing and slightly higher egts while cruising or towing at low rpms.

I can go more into detail on the differences if you like... but it gets a little technical
 

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