Backpressure vs Cylinder Pressure

907DAVE

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Lets see if I can get this one going again.

I see people contributing HG failures to high backpressure all the time, but I just dont get it.

Lets say we have some pretty outrageous backpressure - like 200 psi....how does this pressure have any effect on cylinder pressure. This 200 psi is nothing compared to the +3k these engines see on a daily basis, and much less violent.

Discuss...
 

CamTom12

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I'll say that other than making the engine work harder to exhaust the gas (causing a parasitic power loss), higher BP is going to cause lower cylinder pressures.

If you can't exhaust all the spent gases, you can't ingest a full cylinder's worth to burn.

But maybe with more hot exhaust gases in the cylinder less cooling from intake gases takes place which might advance the SOI? I'm purely guessing if high BP causes that, but too much advance causes CP issues.
 

907DAVE

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Thats about where I am stuck with this whole thing.

Higher cylinder temps increase SOI and CP's, but without the oxygen to burn the fuel - CP's will be lower.

Right?
 

PSDEng

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Hopefully Jason and or Charles come along soon to clear this one up in the matter of a post or two :popcorn:
 

Groomzybanshee

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Is it possilbe the people who are saying that just simply don't know what there talking about or they said Bp instead of cp on accident. Or is there some one directly saying high Bp blew there headgaskets?
 

907DAVE

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No, but everyone always seems to question back pressure when head gaskets fail.
 

jkidd_39

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My guess is that many people assume higher backpressure means higher cylinder pressure as well...

This^^^

Higher backpressure will kill power but I agree that is doesn't pop headgaskets.

Def sub'd for some good info


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk while pulling a 36ft gooseneck and not paying attention to the road.
 

CurtisF

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In addition to what's already been said... high backpressure also results in high EGT's. So most people watching their pyro probably aren't going to push it long at high temps. If they do, it won't be popped HD's they'll have to deal with, it will be cracked pistons.
 

TARM

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Dave,
I am with you and have been saying this for years now. If you think about it at the basic level CP which is what lifts a head is correlated to FTLB torque. Of course technically you have when the combustion event happens and its curve that certainly can have an effect but given things being equal CP and tq have a direct correlation.

Lets open this up a bit further and add even boost or positive pressure into the mix. I would say even boost does not have a direct effect on HG issue. Think about how the same boost form different spec turbos have significantly different effects on actual power output. Sure we can look at boost and say you need fire rings or studs ect but is it really the boost or the power we know that with the boost and setup its going to produce. Its not really the boost psi it self as once again you are only talking about 50-200 psi being added.

There is no question that high BP is a bad thing and can cause damage to parts and rob power combine with some off tuning and all sorts of bad things can happen.
 

CamTom12

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Dave,
I am with you and have been saying this for years now. If you think about it at the basic level CP which is what lifts a head is correlated to FTLB torque. Of course technically you have when the combustion event happens and its curve that certainly can have an effect but given things being equal CP and tq have a direct correlation.

This is a pretty accurate statement when dealing with proper timing. When timing advances too much you'll get spiking CPs and much lower power output.

Lets open this up a bit further and add even boost or positive pressure into the mix. I would say even boost does not have a direct effect on HG issue. Think about how the same boost form different spec turbos have significantly different effects on actual power output. Sure we can look at boost and say you need fire rings or studs ect but is it really the boost or the power we know that with the boost and setup its going to produce. Its not really the boost psi it self as once again you are only talking about 50-200 psi being added.

Boost has more to do with CPs than backpressure. I don't know what DCR usually runs on diesels so I'll just use SCR for an educational example here.

You've got a cylinder with 18:1. Put 50psig on that and you're looking at ~1,165psi before combustion occurs. That's around a 79:1 ratio to atmospheric pressure.

Say you're now putting 100psig to that same cylinder, now you're looking at ~2,065psi prior to combustion and around a 140:1 ratio to atmospheric.

The cool thing about that is you now have roughly 140 more times oxygen in the cylinder than you would if you were running NA - so you can now inject a BUNCH more fuel than you could NA while still getting a good combustion event and make a BUNCH more power - which means even higher CPs during combustion.




Timing plays a big factor still. Want to lower CPs? Retard your timing. You'll see a resultant power drop related to the lower CPs. The piston is now further along in it's downward motion when combustion begins and peaks. The larger and expanding container has less pressure on it's walls as the hot gases expand.

Advance your timing back and you'll gain that power back as you transfer more energy to the piston due to the higher CPs.

Go too far advanced and your combusting, heating, expanding cylinder fuel/air mass will fight the piston during it's travel up to TDC. That'll usually end in mechanical failure because of spiking CPs as combustion spreads, heat builds, and the air tries to expand against a shrinking container - creating very high pressure on its walls.
 

TrailerHauler

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Also going to jump in here to read the upcoming information. I've also seen many say that cylinder pressures and back pressure are directly correlated to head gasket failure. And I'm also in the dark at how cylinder pressures and back pressure affects one another.
 

CamTom12

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Roughly 1:1 is good for making power.

Streetability is much better in the roughly 1.5:1 - 2:1 range for part throttle. That's why VGT is such a nice thing.

And how much backpressure is too much will depend on what turbos you're running.
 

lincolnlocker

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Roughly 1:1 is good for making power.

Streetability is much better in the roughly 1.5:1 - 2:1 range for part throttle. That's why VGT is such a nice thing.

And how much backpressure is too much will depend on what turbos you're running.

is that 1.5:1= boost:backpressure or is it 1:1.5=boost:backpressure?

i just put in a bp gauge and i run 38psi of boost and 58psi of backpressure at wot, is that good or bad?
 
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