Diesel Power mag to test MTW vs. Elite

[TheReelMuhcoy]

I am going to start off by saying, I am just playing the devils advocate here. Elite Diesel IS a big company in the Powerstroke world. MTW has been making some big strides, and has been trying to build a reputation and a good product. No one is better than the other, at end of the day, they are just feeding their family's.

I always laugh when i read this, we are not a big company. fewer employees than you would ever guess.....

on another note, you dont think 70hp on the same dyno, same truck, same day while using very similar sized comp wheels (although our wheel is smaller) are concrete results???

The number of employee's has nothing to do with the size of a company. Its all about revenue and market presence. From my eyes, you guys are a big company. Congrats...

It sure is concrete, but as noted by peixinho, peak HP is just a number. I will get back to HP later...

I believe Diesel power told me that the turbo made 14 rwhp less then the powermax, but made more torque.

Although a bit vague, take it that Adrian is saying that his turbo made more torque than a boxed PowerMax turbo. Considering that HP is a calculated number from torque, this may not be as much of a let down as everyone is making it to be. From the time I was 16 years old and started screwing with turbocharged gasoline engines I never thought HP was an important #, I always focused on torque, which is partly why I got into diesel engines. Bottom line, dyno charts and track times together will help someone choose which fits their application and desired performance.
In case anyone is up for a quick read Difference between Torque and HP

Ok... although not likely, not plausible, and unrealistic... I made a stupid dyno comparison as to why it is important to see the dyno graph and not just know the numbers.


Which one of these vehicles would you rather drive? One did make about 70 more hp

Now please note I did no calculations on this stupid drawing and am not accusing anyones dynos of looking like this.

I am just pointing out that peak hp only as the sole number you get can be very deceiving :thumbsup:

An excellent argument for both turbo's, again The difference between torque and HP

Basically what everyone has wanted to say Steve LOL Adrian probably wouldn't enjoy seeing what's happening here.

If Adrian does feel that he has made an error, than so be it. Everything I just said above is NULL and VOID. Now where is my MIB memory flashy thing...

 

[onebadcoastie]

Since Adrian called DP mag and asked them to be a part of the testing DP mag was doing, it would have been his choice what he provided. If he chose to provide something that was unmatched, inadequate or subpar performing, then he is to blame and he is an idiot.

Do you guys not see how each and every post trying to defy the information gathered only makes Adrian look worse? You're gonna end up running his business into the dirt and he's not even apart of it. The only person that will run his business into the ground is him should that happen. The fate of his business lies in his hands, not on this forum, at least not based on one silly thread.

And just to kill the price tag war hunt that I see is coming, Adrian's turbo cost more then a box stock power max. Considering the Hybrid is no longer in production, that's statement isn't entirely true.It still didn't outperform that. Your argument is flawed, heavily. Argument flawed? Doubtful.

Like I said, you guys keep it up if you want, but MTW is taking the hit. If you are fine with that, then carry on.

.

As I stated, this thread isn't MTW's demise. Furthermore, I'm not on here swinging for any particular company. Yes I have the Hybrid but I don't go shoving MTW down anyone's throat. Adrian has 4 different turbo options that have proven to be excellent turbos, regardless of whatever numbers have or have not come from them. With the success of all of his turbos with the exception of the Hybrid which is currently discontinued, it's not likely his business is going to fail and this thread is not going to affect his business. After all, he tested a turbo he doesn't sell to the public anymore. So what.

 

[Powerstroked162]

The only person that will run his business into the ground is him should that happen. The fate of his business lies in his hands, not on this forum, at least not based on one silly thread.

That's not at all true actually. I know this because JJ single handedly buried him in the beginning of the MTW days. There are still people on this forum who wont give Adrian a nickel because of that, and I hate that for him and I definitely hate to see him going through that again because of few keyboard techs thinking they can outsmart the data gathered during testing on one of his popular sellers. Catch my drift yet? I mean, do you want people to start asking questions like, Whose all bought a Hybrid and how will MTW be going about refunding them their money on their purchase since it doesn't work as advertised. See these are the types of things that start coming to mind when people reading see stuff posted by guys like you and a couple others in here. Especially when they see MTW people pushing buttons and taking pot shots at a company whose been way above board with Adrian. So as I said, please... if you don't care about Adrian or the well being of his business, carry on with the garbage.

Considering the Hybrid is no longer in production, that's statement isn't entirely true

Right, and why isn't the turbo in production any longer?

Argument flawed?

I'd love to hear your math.

As I stated, this thread isn't MTW's demise. Furthermore, I'm not on here swinging for any particular company. Yes I have the Hybrid but I don't go shoving MTW down anyone's throat. Adrian has 4 different turbo options that have proven to be excellent turbos, regardless of whatever numbers have or have not come from them. With the success of all of his turbos with the exception of the Hybrid which is currently discontinued, it's not likely his business is going to fail and this thread is not going to affect his business. After all, he tested a turbo he doesn't sell to the public anymore. So what.

Such a loaded statement it's not even funny. So data shedding a poor light on the product is irrelevant beecccaaauuussse why? For Adrian's sake, I hope a mod shuts this thread down. I actually really like Adrian and appreciate what he does. A couple of you are putting his company in such a bad light with ridiculous posts that I'm having a hard time staying neutral, and I don't need the drama. Funny thing about that..... sounds exactly like what i said would happen in a prior post. Go figure :doh:

 

[onebadcoastie]

"MTW people taking shots at a company far bigger than MTW." Interesting concept. You've now classified me as a bandwagon junkie for MTW. You must have failed at reading comprehension in school when I told you I'm not on here advocating for ANY particular company.

You're making this out as if I'm in here bashing Elite. I'm not bashing anybody (well except your ability to comprehend what I'm trying to convey).

Anyways, since you've failed to see that I'm not on anyones band wagon here and you've yet to see my point, this will be my last post in this thread regarding MTW/Elite.

 

[Powerstroked162]

"MTW people taking shots at a company far bigger than MTW." Interesting concept. You've now classified me as a bandwagon junkie for MTW. You must have failed at reading comprehension in school when I told you I'm not on here advocating for ANY particular company.

You're making this out as if I'm in here bashing Elite. I'm not bashing anybody (well except your ability to comprehend what I'm trying to convey).

Anyways, since you've failed to see that I'm not on anyones band wagon here and you've yet to see my point, this will be my last post in this thread regarding MTW/Elite.

LOL

Don't throw your toys, it'll be ok I promise.

Let's recap: I've made three responses to you now in this thread in which each post of yours was riddled with(paraphrased) "Im not a nut swinger" followed by "what if". You even went as far as to suggest that Adrian sent in a subpar turbo for testing that he himself called and asked to be apart of. How can I comprehend anything from posts like that other then what I see?? A guy(you) trying to protect a business by making excuses for another guy(Adrian) who doesn't want his excuses because he's already said in this thread it was his fault and he's on top of.

Now understand where I'm coming from... I don't think YOU alone are nut swinging. I don't even really think you're that guy. I've probably done you a disservice by lumping you in with the others in this thread, that's my own fault. I do however think that you have chosen to speak up against the PROVEN results with bad excuses and poorly worded posts that leave the idea you may be trying to discredit what was done as well as the shop in the testing. That gets my attention. If you had legitimate data to refute the results, I wouldn't break your balls about it. I probably wouldn't even post. What I've seen from a few MTW people in here is why we are where we are I guess. So stupid that I have to even explain that in a tech thread but whatever.

So, the turbo in testing doesn't work - that we can agree on. No excuses, no crazy stories or any of that are needed to refute it. Whats that leave us with? A stock Powermax is a better buy then a MTW turbo at this moment. The data proves that to be so. It sucks, but it is what it is and Adrian said he is on it and he will have something kickass in no time. What else do we have? A elite modded turbo is better then a stock powermax and a MTW turbo. How do we know this? The data gathered by Diesel Power Magazine during back to back testing for a tech article. Does anything else not mentioned matter? No it doesn't. Not one bit. Not customer service issues from 5+ years ago, not how many seagulls were in the park on tuesday at noon, nothing. Anything posted outside of the results by anybody other then Adrian regarding the testing of the MTW turbo, is useless and is only casting a negative light over MTW here on the forum.

Well, at least thats my "lack of comprehension" being put to the test at midnight on a saturday anyway

 

[Wayne]

Stupid comparison, nobody would buy a new turbo without getting revised tunes (exactly what dp did) if any of you take this comparison to heart you're an idiot. Once dp releases all of the info we'll be able to make a conclusion, until then I'll stay open minded.

Of course customer service wasn't mentioned.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 2

Tuning is pretty much irrelevant in the test at hand since it was identical on all the testing, and was a legitimate power tune, proven for the application. Would many recommend re-tuning a truck after major performance modifications? Of course. Nobody is refuting that.

if you care about what went on with the test, you need to take it for exactly what it's worth, especially in regard to what will be public info once you get your copy of the mag. Adrian's final results are dismissed, so what you will get is the best reasonable comparison of a powermax vs. Elite's powermax ssx. If you don't see all the info you want, go pay for the tests yourself. This info isn't free to acquire. In fact, it's very time consuming and expensive, so you should be glad for what you get. You want track times? Great, go get them. You want Egt results? Test it yourself. Most of that info can be closely estimated, compared or otherwise based off of dyno graphs, smoke output at different engine loads and rpm's, etc. I hope the mag prints dyno graphs so people can see what the get for the extra money it costs for the elite version. Keep the control factors in mind. Exact same tuning on all similar turbos, same day, and a very controlled environment. How early on torque and hp come on is an excellent way to see turbo responsiveness. The powermax is the control, which many people are familiar with, so they can see the pros and cons in regard to something most enthusiasts know of.

If everything else is constant at the level this truck is at, (we have yet to see how they are), and you are serious about power, 70 hp extra is a REALLY big deal, and is a bargain at only $700 more. If you didn't already know, power cost grows exponentially as you deviate from the baseline, so once you leave chip, intake, and exhaust land, things get real expensive real quick. You've come on here like a know-it-all jerk, telling a bunch of "been there, done that" people how it should be done. ...not a good approach if you want to be welcome around here. You can start making demands when you're the one who is paying for the info. Until then, it would probably do you some good to sit back, and research a little before you come across like that.

 

[swinky]

I stated my opinion and you "experienced" guys don't agree. Not a big deal, if some of you more seasoned folk disagree with me its most likely cause im wrong and I'll easily admit that. Sorry I stepped on some toes in here, have a good sunday folks. Out.

 

[RedRice589]

Oh just get off it elite turbo put down good numbers and Adrian is revising a turbo he didn't have quite right. Joys of testing. Just yesterday I spoke with Adrian (real nice guy) now I have no dog in this fight but he dynoe'd in all 3 classes at thoroughbred diesel with the same injectors and different turbos. Work stock stage one, 2.6 stage 3, and unlimited class rage 4, he did this for testing purposes o he can know where his turbos stand on his own platform. That is for testing now just leave it alone please.

 

[bricewise]

No skin in the game here. But after Adrian asked DP not to publish his results and discontinued the product. Is there really any other conversation to have hear? All these what if's do not make sense. If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas

 

[RedRice589]

No skin in the game here. But after Adrian asked DP not to publish his results and discontinued the product. Is there really any other conversation to have hear? All these what if's do not make sense. If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas

:blitzed::tree: let's go racing!!!

 

[onebadcoastie]

No skin in the game here. But after Adrian asked DP not to publish his results and discontinued the product. Is there really any other conversation to have hear? All these what if's do not make sense. If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas

He discontinued it back in August because of issues customers had with it, not because of the DP magazine test results.

 

[bricewise]

He discontinued it back in August because of issues customers had with it, not because of the DP magazine test results.

Irregardless its discontinued so whats the point of beating the discontinued horse to death?

 

[onebadcoastie]

Irregardless its discontinued so whats the point of beating the discontinued horse to death?

Touché

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

Seriously? Come on guys. If you don't think that 70hp and repeated success without reliability problems isn't a good reason to buy the Elite turbo, then just buy a straight powermax. Hell, it made the same or more hp that the MTW. If your worried about power per dollar than buy a $1200 powemax and be quiet. If you want the best powermax on the market but the Elite.

And I still don't get the tuning deal. If it doesn't work with stock style tuning or of the shelf race or street tunes then to me it says there is lots of performance problems that your just masking it with tuning.

I don't understand why it is so hard to wrap your head around it that it doesn't work. I mean he took it off the market. I am not a big Elite fan because of how biased some of their supporters are against any other competitors (including our products). But It seems the MTW nut swingers are tooth and nail against all.

Facts are:

Elite made more power without "special tuning to make it work.

Mtw didn't perform well in many aspects.

The powemax outperformed the Mtw.

Adrian said it didn't work and pulled it off the market.

Adrian did what's right and is making it better.

Mtw does good work and should be commended for their effort.

The dyno didn't lie.

DP mag dropped the mtw out so that it didn't hurt their reputation by putting this all in print.

Yet you guys are still arguing that it didn't happen? Or that track times are a better more accurate way of judging hp than back to back dyno runs in a controlled environment? I think you should all step back and think about how bad you making Mtw look when making these asinine claims.

 

[01PSD]

Can this thread be closed? :doh:

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

I agree there is not one good thing coming from this thread what so ever.

 

[peixinho]

I for one am tired of everyone getting their panties all bent out of shape!

Also why does everyone have to get so defensive?



Why even post a thread about MTW vs Elite and then not actually talk about it? I would love to learn the actual facts about the turbos! Not people just jumping on here and defending one turbo or another. Also lumping some people into this MTW bandwagon or whatever you guys are calling it just because.

So I guess we should just take some posting a pic of a 70hp gain as gospel. We all need to go out and buy Elite Turbos right now. If not then you must be one of those crazy MTW fans :morons: . We might want to just learn what makes the Elite turbo so much better. Is that wrong?



Some of us actually would like to learn the ins and outs about how each turbo did and why it did better. Are we not aloud to ask? Some people care more about how a truck/turbo drives... rather than how much power it makes on a dyno!


Also what is wrong about asking about the tunes? We all know that every turbo runs different on different tunes. Maybe they ran a tune that works well on one and not the other? I am not saying it is so but I would like to know what tunes they ran. I have ran about 15 different turbo combos in the last few months I I have about 15 different tunes and I can tell you that each turbo reacts slightly different. I would just like to know which tune they ran and if they tried switching tunes at all?


Also why not ask about track times. I have seen high hp dyno trucks do horrible at the track. Why are we the ignorant ones if we are simply trying to learn more about each turbo and turbo setup?


What is wrong about asking how streetable they are?



From the last few post I have read you either have to hear rumors of a 70hp gain and then bow down to the power of one turbo company... or you are a nutswinging, bandwagon, groupie ????




I for one love learning about turbos and how they all run different. I am excited for the magazine to come out and I hope they post all the info we are asking... but just in case they don't maybe someone with some inside knowledge could post a little info on the following. I think seeing the dyno graphs could help us learn a little about these differences.


single plane vs dual plane comp wheels
6x6 vs 7x7 comp wheels
cast vs billet
10 blade turbine vs 13 blade turbine
did they all have the same AR Comp
did they all have the same AR turbine
What were the exact sizes of the comp wheels?
What were the exact size of the turbine wheels and what were they made out of?
Did anyone try the drive ability of the turbos?
Were there any track times?
How much hp did each truck make? (not just the differences)
how much tq did each truck make?
Will we ever see the dyno charts?




Yes I understand some of this will be posted in the magazine and I will buy it when it comes out. But to start a thread like this and then insult everyone for asking questions seems stupid to me. Or am I just crazy :naughty:

 

[Dzchey21]

Seriously? Come on guys. If you don't think that 70hp and repeated success without reliability problems isn't a good reason to buy the Elite turbo, then just buy a straight powermax. Hell, it made the same or more hp that the MTW. If your worried about power per dollar than buy a $1200 powemax and be quiet. If you want the best powermax on the market but the Elite.

And I still don't get the tuning deal. If it doesn't work with stock style tuning or of the shelf race or street tunes then to me it says there is lots of performance problems that your just masking it with tuning.

I don't understand why it is so hard to wrap your head around it that it doesn't work. I mean he took it off the market. I am not a big Elite fan because of how biased some of their supporters are against any other competitors (including our products). But It seems the MTW nut swingers are tooth and nail against all.

Facts are:

Elite made more power without "special tuning to make it work.

Mtw didn't perform well in many aspects.

The powemax outperformed the Mtw.

Adrian said it didn't work and pulled it off the market.

Adrian did what's right and is making it better.

Mtw does good work and should be commended for their effort.

The dyno didn't lie.

DP mag dropped the mtw out so that it didn't hurt their reputation by putting this all in print.

Yet you guys are still arguing that it didn't happen? Or that track times are a better more accurate way of judging hp than back to back dyno runs in a controlled environment? I think you should all step back and think about how bad you making Mtw look when making these asinine claims.

well said


I think at this point this thread is done for