HPOP question

JLDickmon · Feb 17, 2013

anyone remember the minimum ICP pressure spec?
aint it like 600psi?

neverkickn · Feb 17, 2013

To fire the truck?

JLDickmon · Feb 17, 2013

yeah.
mine's running 585-ish at idle.. IPR does not appear stuck as the pressure changes with throttle input and can easily make 1,000psi just snapping the throttle pedal..

I was thinking it was like 600psi..

the issue is long crank time unless it's plugged in, even in 35 degree weather..

to the point the starter is beginning to drag..
gotta take a spare in and get a warranty unit (NAPA)

but anyway..
back in November, I was having issues with a surge when I would take off first thing in the morning.. it would stay running, but it would lay right in the ground.. and it was NOT the EBPV..

I changed the oil and that went away, but the kids couldn't get it to run even since I went on vacation for 15 days, and I've had to ether it four times since..

put a new GPR on it, then put in new glow plugs and another new GPR..
didn't really change anything..

Until today, when I decided to play with my new scanner (traded the MODIS in on a VERUS wireless one).. pulled codes, and it had some goofy ones.. ignition switch, transfer case, no power @ GEM, etc.. some of them I may have set while I was replaceing the glow plugs.. I had one stick in the head and tried to used compression to blow it out, so I pulled the PCM fuse and cranked it..

anyway.. the mileage is right for the HPOP to head West... I'm just trying to draw the whole circle..

neverkickn · Feb 17, 2013

Do the injectors have the same mileage?

JLDickmon · Feb 17, 2013

not all of them..
I think I've replaced 4 if memory serves, and it had one already in it when I replaced the first one at 50,000ish thousand.. last time I replaced one I pulled them all and re-ringed them if that's what you're getting at..

I buzzed them all this morning and they all passed.. #8 had been failing the contribution test and was throwing that low-to-high open code, but no code today and it passed contribution also..

Arisley · Feb 17, 2013

500 to fire.
Check HPOP level before trying to start it. Check fuel pressure also.

Have you tested the voltage to and from the GPR?

JLDickmon · Feb 17, 2013

Arisley said:
500 to fire.
Check HPOP level before trying to start it. Check fuel pressure also.

Have you tested the voltage to and from the GPR?

voltage across GPR check.. that's why I replaced the first GPR.. dropped 4 volts across..
all the old GP's checked at or less than 1 ohm.. I didn't try to "dry fire" them with a couple jumper leads.. although I did find a couple that the connector had vibrated/backed off of.. they were three years old anyway..

10-4 on the fuel pressure.. because when it won't start, it doesn't make any smoke.. first thing I did when I got home was put a new fuel pump relay on it (I had it laying around).. but I fail to draw the conclusion between plugged in and fuel pressure/pump operation.. I'll have to look and see if I have the right fitting to check fuel pressure.. most of my stuff like that is for gassers..

TyCorr · Feb 17, 2013

Well if the oil being heated helps maybe your oil sucks. Can you give us more info? Mileage on motor, inectors, hpop, etc. Depending on your mileage, two gp.cycles may become the norm.when its cold out regardless of gp and relay condition.

I really think.the synthetic oil helps witb rough running oil.related issues. Although you might have diferent issues.

POWER-STRUCK · Feb 17, 2013

sounds more like an injector issue.
did you rule out the min. of 125rpm to start?

DocBar · Feb 17, 2013

Could it be a CPS going south?

Justin@DP-Tuner · Feb 18, 2013

Like Andy said, PCM needs to see 500psi to start. Once it is started, it can idle below 500psi.

I agree on an injector issue. Especially since you have no smoke while cranking.

Also, how many RPM's while cranking?

JLDickmon · Feb 18, 2013

Justin@DP-Tuner said:
Like Andy said, PCM needs to see 500psi to start. Once it is started, it can idle below 500psi.

I agree on an injector issue. Especially since you have no smoke while cranking.

Also, how many RPM's while cranking?

you guys are costing me a lot of money here...

an HPOP is $800..
injectors are like $1600

cranking RPM used to be about 325, until the ether start incidents.. by the time I got cheesed enough to use ether, I had ground on the starter pretty good..
cranking rpm now is 225

oil is due to be changed again in a couple thou..
it's running Valvoline Prem Blue at the moment..
Motorcraft was in it when it had the surging issue..
both conventional oils.

it really doesn't crank any appreciably slower if I don't plug it in, it just winds up and sits there on that cusp of running but doesn't catch and fire.

What scares me is: if I go on vacation again, one of the horses does something stupid and has to go to the vet NOW, and she can't get it started.
THAT'S a problem.

JLDickmon · Feb 18, 2013

let me tell you how it went down the first time I had to ether it..

it had sat at work all day, 9+ hrs.
was cold out.. like +5 deg..

glowed it twice, hit the key..
spun right over than hung there going "i just can't catch, i just can't catch, i just can't catch, i just can't catch, i just can't catch, " for about 30 seconds.

glowed it twice more
hit the key, same thing..

went back inside, got the jump pack and put it ground and engine side of the gpr..
waited 30 secs, cranked on it again.. "i just can't catch, i just can't catch, i just can't catch, i just can't catch, i just can't catch, "

pulled the jump pack off, went back inside got a screwdriver and a can of ether, and the battery charger..
hooked up the battery charger, sat it to Boost, pulled the snorkel, stuck my hand in the window and cranked it..
hit it with the ether.. popped to life instantly, but it would not idle unless i gave it a little squirt of ether every couple of seconds.. then you could hear something change in how the engine was running.. and it idled by itself..

I gave it five minutes to clear the ether, the EBPV was cycling.. I hopped in and drove to the gas station, topped off the tank, and drove it home.
It started normally after I fueled it.

JLDickmon · Feb 18, 2013

now, I know you're going to jump all over the =5 deg in the last post, but it has done it at 35 deg out twice since, and once at like 20 deg.

I gotta plug it in.
and this is the first winter I've NEEDED to plug it in.

POWER-STRUCK · Feb 18, 2013

sounds like worn injectors

JLDickmon · Feb 18, 2013

OK, I'll go for that, but I used to be a tech.. worked on mainly gas motors granted, but I'd rather diagnose and know, than throw parts, even if it fixes it..

What's going on that makes
A. you guys think that it's injectors
B. and how do I confirm

I got no problem coughing up $1,800 for a set of injectors, but I need to draw the full circle, ya know?

If someone can tell me, "Well the blah blah valve wears out and you can confirm this by sticking your right leg out of the window while standing on your head under the dash and watching the PID..."
then I can do that.

If you in turn need to see data, tell me what you want and I can get it.
This Verdict scanner is da' BOMB! I can take a snapshot of the data, and attach it to an email..

POWER-STRUCK · Feb 18, 2013

do a sound clip or video of the KOEO injector electrical (buzz) test and post it or do manual measurement of armature clearance with feeler gauges

lincolnlocker · Feb 18, 2013

is there anyway to monitor low pressure oil? did you check the hpop res like andy said prior to turning it over to try to start. is the truck tuned or bone stock? whats the icp while cranking? what are your battery voltages before startup and after its up to temp? how many miles on truck/hpop/injectors? once its up to temp unplug icp sensor to rule that out...

live life full throttle

JLDickmon · Feb 18, 2013

lincolnlocker said:
is there anyway to monitor low pressure oil? did you check the hpop res like andy said prior to turning it over to try to start. is the truck tuned or bone stock? whats the icp while cranking? what are your battery voltages before startup and after its up to temp? how many miles on truck/hpop/injectors? once its up to temp unplug icp sensor to rule that out...

live life full throttle

1. haven't yet, but I suppose.. I have an oil pressure test gauge..

2. HPOP res.. it's full

3. yes, it has one of DP's chips on it with the basic S/60t/80e tunes
(when it acted up on the kid, she had it in 60 horse, it's acted up in stock and in the 80 econo modes.. have not yanked it off altogether..)

4. ICP cranking is just shy of 600psi

5. batteries are both 12.6 open circuit, load test good (with one disconnected from the other).. can't get a hydrometer in there..

6. 195,000 on the OE HPOP.. close to that on the injectors.. I've had to replace two due to driveability issues.. both around 80k.. left side had a reman in it already when I pulled the v/c, bought the truck with 44k on it..

7. ICP sensor is not leaking.. what am I looking for when I pull the connector with the engine running? ICP values vary according to engine load watching the data stream..

here's where I'm coming from..
if it was just me driving it, I'd just keep it plugged in a srewdriver and a can of ether behind the seat and not care..
BUT.. here's what's gonna happen..
This is the only truck I have at the house now. Oldest daughter took hers when she moved to Indy last year.
If I'm out of town on vacation or something, and a horse has to go to the vet.. the other daughter HAS to be able to start it without any superfluous nonsense such as ether. Plugged in or not, it HAS to run.

TyCorr · Feb 18, 2013

Yea, as it should start. Ether is bs. Nor should you need it.

I think, for some reason that all that gp.cycling isnt doing anything. Just because it sounds like mine when the relay was junk.