Nonvgt turbines

[kdogg85]

With all the talk of swapping turbine housings and so forth, what about messing around with the turbine wheels? As far as having different blade counts that is. I never hear any talk of this other than what size they are when someone buys them or what comes stock out of the box.

I am sure there has been someone who has messed with them before. Is there just no real benefit to doing it as the main offerings are good enough and can be tuned to work just fine. Just find it weird that the vgt guys are almost all the time talking about the turbine blade count and the non's never speak of it, other than the size and housing.

I understand the idea is probably not worth looking into too deep as manufacturers wouldn't want a million different sku's to keep up with, and someone always swapping them out just to see what happens. Jsut a food for thought thread.

 

[windrunner408]

Are you saying turbo manufacturers should make more turbine wheel options with different blade counts or that they do and more people should explore those?? I would think folks would explore different blade count turbine wheels if they were available (not sure if they are currently available or not) as opposed to just trying different sizes. I think the only reason you hear about the VGT guys talking about this is because there is currently two blade counts offered in a GT37 series turbine wheel and that's it. To my knowledge anyways, you can't get a 13 bladed turbine wheel in the GT40 series turbines (again I don't know what BW offers but I would be curious to find out) and so with that one different sizes are the only option as well.

 

[faster6.0]

Pmax is 9 blade, 05-07 are 13 blade, 03-early 04 are 10

 

[kdogg85]

That's the reason exactly, garret must have seen something to offer 2 different count turbines, and still keep the smaller count around. I understand you will trade low-end for top-end to a certain degree. With the nonvgt's, you have only 2 options for overall performance, housing size and type(open, divided) and how aggressive the low end fueling is.

Now, i am not getting at being able to run a s400 frame alone on 155cc sticks or anything, but why it has never really been thought of or brought up. I have been talking about this with a couple guys on the "other brand" forums and they had the same attitude towards it " why has this never been discussed." That may be another reason why these just don't have the low end of the vgt's without massive fuel.

 

[windrunner408]

Pmax is 9 blade, 05-07 are 13 blade, 03-early 04 are 10

Pretty sure the Pmax has 10 blades. At least the two that I saw did. Of course unless I can't count...which may be true too sometimes LOL LOL LOL

 

[strokin6L]

yeah i have seen the same thing Nate. The Pmax's i've seen have had 10 blade wheels. Never heard of a 9 blade wheel on a Pmax

 

[Pizza pig]

LOL at the 9 blade turbine... Thats vane count and every vgt for a ford has 9 vanes.

Borg warner as far as i know only offers 10 blade turbines, they do whistle like garret wheels so no need to up the blade count, 10 blade turbinesflow better than say a 13 count

 

[strokin6L]

But as far as VGT is concerned....the newer style 13 blade wheel in the '05-07 trucks flow better than the 10 blade wheels that came in the '03-early 04's

 

[madpowerstroke]

The vgt turbos have less lag due to having vanes. That's the whole idea, the vgt turbo acts like a small turbo down low and a big turbo up high. If the vanes get stuck or if the actuator stops working then the vgt turbo turns into a non vgt. With non vgt turbo you have to pick the size and then play with the turbine housing to get what you want. You may find a happy medium, with the performance you want. The vgt turbos are limited to the housings being .90ar, but since the turbo has the vanes to adjust it really does need other choices.

 

[Pizza pig]

But as far as VGT is concerned....the newer style 13 blade wheel in the '05-07 trucks flow better than the 10 blade wheels that came in the '03-early 04's

Id like to see the flow data, if they flow air ao well why do none of the companies like garrett, borg warner, precision, turbonetics use them over a 10 blade in their high flow chargers?

 

[09stroker]

I would think a 13 blade would flow less cause it takes up more space in the housing.

 

[kdogg85]

It does flow less, but makes up for in the low rpm range. The turbine side acts as the cam profile would for a N/A engine. Small means low-mid, big means, high-rpm. And the comp is acting as the intake manifold side, same results as the turbine side, we all know that tunnel-rams are almost useless on the street unless you have big double pumpers or dominators. Then of course runner size, etc...

As far as the manufacturers trying something out, it would be a double sided experiment, the single's would need the most R&D I would think as this is the lone source of air. The 10 works, but tuning is exponentially critical, one little flaw si the difference between a runner and a smoke blowing turd. I would like to see some leeway built in somehow. Not saying re-invent the wheel, but there ahs to be some improvement somewhere.

The compound's could probably get by with a standard 13 blade design and see very good if not dream result feedback, due to the lp taking over fairly early in the rpm range, my truck the lp is coming in around 2200rpms wot, not really the tip end of the hp's efficiency range, but it works, and damn good at that.

Now another idea is slightly oversizing the compressor over the turbine to overcome its weight and free area(area around turbine and between blades) with a big azz explosion in the cylinders. I mean more than 5%, take a leap. I would guess this would result in constant overspeed, but could the materials be changed to meet this condition. They found a way for something to spin 100k+ rpms somehow or another and not fly apart.

There are so many scenarios to this question that it would boggle the mind, we all go for the most part what has been tried and true. Why not look at all parts of the combustion process, it wasn't too long ago that headers were considered a waste, and now look, they are a rave.

 

[strokin6L]

From guys that i talked to including Eric at ID...i've been told that it's better than the 10 blade for responsiveness and flow. Like i said Greg...i mentioned this for the factory vgt....not a non vgt. Did you forget that Garrett does use this in their vgt turbo for the 6L. I'm sure they did the testing on it and came to a conclusion why they up'd the blades on the turbine wheel from 10 to 13.

They way i look at it is this....take a fan with two blades, and run it....then take the same fan and add a third blade. I believe the three bladed fan will move more air because you have another blade to do so. IDK, maybe my way of thought is off.

 

[windrunner408]

But as far as VGT is concerned....the newer style 13 blade wheel in the '05-07 trucks flow better than the 10 blade wheels that came in the '03-early 04's

I would say that the GT37 series 13 blade wheel seems to flow more efficiently than the 10 blade wheels do, at least down low and it is indeterminate what happens up top. Of course the 05-07 trucks that they are found standard in have their base strategies optimized for these wheels. As far as how much more or less total flow than a 10 blade wheel goes, I think remains to be seen. I know that I'm not convinced a Pmax outflows a LLY duramax turbo in any of the RPM range even though all of their wheels have the same sizes but more blades on the turbine end. Nevertheless, I will agree that in theory since the lower blade count allows for more room between the blades that the drive pressures should be lower, but again in the VGT turbo the tuning is going to have to be setup to effectively utilize that.

 

[strokin6L]

Anyone ever look to see if the angle of the blades are different from the ten blade to the thirteen blade wheel? just curious is all

 

[Pizza pig]

Again, i want to see the flow data to prove such a bold statement. And Ford wr t to gerret for the 13 blade wheel because of noise purposes only, they were too loud and people complained. My 03 turbo was just as responsive as my 05 turbo was.

 

[windrunner408]

Well by the very nature of the fact that 10 blades spread out over 360* is of course a blade every 36* and 13 blades over 360* is ~27.7* so I would think that that would change the angle of the blades. However, I did look at a 13 blade and 10 blade wheels that I have the angle of the blades do appear to be VERY similar in terms of how they come out from the wheel. Not sure if this helps or not but it is what I noticed anyways.

 

[windrunner408]

Again, i want to see the flow data to prove such a bold statement. And Ford wr t to gerret for the 13 blade wheel because of noise purposes only, they were too loud and people complained. My 03 turbo was just as responsive as my 05 turbo was.

It would be nice if such data existed that we could get our hands on for sure. Either way though, after it is all said and done, all this talk is over one wheel that comes in two different configurations and like so many other things in this sport, I think the difference between the two is so small that there are way more factors that can contribute to either one being more favorable over the other.

 

[mgeistman]

From guys that i talked to including Eric at ID...i've been told that it's better than the 10 blade for responsiveness and flow. Like i said Greg...i mentioned this for the factory vgt....not a non vgt. Did you forget that Garrett does use this in their vgt turbo for the 6L. I'm sure they did the testing on it and came to a conclusion why they up'd the blades on the turbine wheel from 10 to 13.

They way i look at it is this....take a fan with two blades, and run it....then take the same fan and add a third blade. I believe the three bladed fan will move more air because you have another blade to do so. IDK, maybe my way of thought is off.

i see a fan being more like a compressor wheel............not a turbine wheel:doh:

 

[strokin6L]

wouldn't matter either way on how the wheels get spun. They get spun by pressure being forced through them....whether it be clean air or exhaust....they're still gonna spin