Tuning 101 - Thread Merged with Injector Posts

2000wa250

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Damn Charles...I would live to sit down, have a few beers, and pick your brain on tuning since you have experience tuning the same calibration as I have...

I'd post more questions, but gotta head out to the shop and swap a lpop since the one in there won't build more than 20 psi at operating temp at anything off idle....

Although I must say I'm intrigued by what you started to get into in the last post talking about turning off variables and thinking mechanical with dynamic timing given this is exactly how I have looked at tuning my truck since I started doing it myself.


What I would give to take a peek at your files....

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Tom S

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Charles,
If you can comment in any way OTHER than what you have done LIVE tuning your own trucks, that would be helpful to those interested in anything larger than a 100% nozzle.
No point in repeating yourself. You have proved what LIVE tuning will do, whether it was 10 years ago or yesterday. And it doesn't matter if you have 300 good files or 1. Those are all for YOUR truck that you LIVE tuned.

If you don't believe me then try talking with hundreds of customers a year with tuning issues that did not get live tuning, for even basic injector upgrades.

I have seen first hand 3 stockish OBS trucks with Stage-1 injectors all run the exact same chip. As in take the chip out of one truck and put it in the other. ALL 3 trucks exactly identical in every way and every upgrade. Yet all 3 trucks run completely different. 1 runs good, 1 not so good, and one some good and some bad.

Now imagine trying to do that with a bigger injector with a bigger nozzle.

I had Bill live tune my truck years ago. The difference then was amazing vs the 'stock' Stage-3 file I was running up until the seat-time session. Stage-3's have been around for how many decades now, you'd think it'd be easy to get good tunes for those, right?

Every truck is different....

Very much agree with this. Also see the same thing in identical new stock gas vehicles.
 

OldschoolPSD

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Diesel performance is the only type of performance where canned tunes are the norm. If I got on an LS1 forum and asked about mail order tunes for my race car, I'd be laughed off the site.

Live tuning is the only way to go if you are making major changes like nozzle size.
 

mustube

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Gas engines are quite a bit different and much much more picky.

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OldschoolPSD

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All I know is that after several revisions of tuning, my truck still idled like crap. A couple of hours strapped to the dyno and we had the idle great and picked up power. Sorry if it hurts some feelings around here, but mail order tunes are a joke.
 

97stoker350

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No one spot on earth is exactly the same either so what works for someone else won't work for you probably, I don't know how you do your tuning changes but if it takes a week weather is different everyday. A couple hours and you can virtually eliminate the affects of weather on an engine and get better results. That's just my thinking anyway
 

Steve's red stroker

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Proof why no one needs 100% nozzles on 160cc injectors

A lot of the problem is our trucks are getting cheaper and it's allowing more people in with less knowledge or even basic mechanical skills and want to just bolt on parts and make it go when they overlook little things such as an oil soaked icp sensor or weak hpop (whether it be lack of proper equipment, inexperience, or location for live tuning) and then wonder why their truck doesn't perform like they heard it should. When you double or triple your stock hp on anything you have to expect that there might/will be bugs to work out, it's just the nature if the beast IMO


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Gearhead

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Tim, it appears that your 30% may be a bit larger than what I am used to seeing for a 30% nozzle. Can you repeat the first test you showed here with a stock nozzle and one of your 30% nozzles side by side?
 

Derek@Vision Diesel

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Wanted to test this theory for ourselves...

We just ordered up a set of 160/30 to install for a customer that wanted out of his old school stage 1s.

This will be our only experience with 30s and 7.3s. We use 30% a lot of the 6.0 crowd. Never had much issue with 80s or 100s though in the 7.3 world
 

Tim @ P.I.S.

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Again, going to try and respond to all......

30% are a good fit for some people and I have personally pushed them. Sometimes however, I have found that the 80% are actually cleaner because of the manufacturing process used and under towing conditions the 80% run slightly cooler than the 30% at the same power output.

Matt, all of our nozzles use the exact same process to manufacture with the exception of the 100%. They use more EH on them than the rest. The only reason for any to be less "CLEAN" is either A) Tuning or B) injector design.

I agree completely on the too-high pulse width statement from "tuners". I see it very often. However, my point being that if a person were to do a test with four 160-ish CC injectors of equal capacity - one with a stock nozzle and the others with a 30%, 100%, and even 400% - run at, say, 5.0mS ACTUAL at 3000 RPM ( 5.0mS isn't possible in a truck at that RPM, but on a flow bench have at it), and 3000 PSI, they would ALL fill your graduated cylinders the same amount after 1000 shots.......

And yet apparently some builders use test parameters just like what you posted.

Your test proves nothing other than the capacity of the injector is the same between the two. I like Nate's idea.

Maybe I didn't simplify this enough. Show me a tuner that tunes less than 2.5ms for a 160cc injector and I will be surprised. Not that it isn't happening, but I sure haven't seen it.

Why pay more for 100% nozzles when our 30% does the same, but possibly even better?


You will never, EVER see me tell somebody that 400/400 injectors will work well for ANYTHING. I QUIT tuning the 7.3L commercially/remotely because of unscrupulous businesses that would convince people that anything with a nozzle size of larger than 100% is completely streetable on the first iteration of tuning attempts....it just ain't happening - especially when remotely writing calibrations. I won't touch them because 90% of the people who read forums and see that someone is running 400% nozzles somewhat successfully will never be happy on their daily commute with kids in the back seat and groceries under the topper.

Yet everyday I see people ask what they should do with their mildly stock truck and responses come poring in "you need large hybrids" :shrug:

This thread seems like a vendor trying to drum up business to me. Which is fine I guess. Lots of good points why the test really doesn't show much.

Maybe it just seems odd as I am one of the few that are not on here ramming parts down your throat on a daily basis. Ask anyone who has been around the last 10 years, I have always posted solely for the education of fellow enthusiast. We have been building "BETTER FUEL" injectors for several years now. We take a different approach to HEUI injectors then most apparently. As other brands have been sent in for repair/modify over the years. If some of you only knew what you had paid good money for actually flowed on a flow bench.

I did my research and went with 160/100% in my truck. They run very clean and cool no matter what I do with the truck and overall I am tickled with them.
160/30% seem pointless to me given the nozzles cost the same as the 100% (from some vendors anyway). Go larger and control with tuning. Pretty simple.
Just my opinion, I have never ran the 160/30% and I don't plan

Unlimited 400cc/200% hybrids + Gearhead tuning + S467.7=Towing friggin' machine

Haven't towed 10K+ at elevation with it to be fair though.

I've never ran smaller than 200% nozzles....I'm just not seeing the advantage to stretching out the injection event. My truck idles near stock, cold weather performance/starting like stock, 550-600 egts on flat ground at 65 mph unloaded. Makes more power than you can use on the street as a DD, and then historically averages 18-19 mpg as a ZF6 truck.

What advantages are there to smaller than 200% nozzles? Honest question.

Did I just luck out with my injector builder/tuner product relationship?

Curious, but do you even know how long it takes to flow 400cc out a 200% nozzle?? If you don't use that 400cc. why have it??? Our 160/30 empty in nearly half the time your 400/200 emptys in. But you "just not seeing the advantage to stretching out the injection event." :shrug:


200% and 400% can be made steerable.

Very rarely in one shot like posted above. My 200% were pretty good. But not perfect. My 400% is why I'm glad I bought Minotaur.

They are finicky. But I drive around town lots and have slapped small trailers on the rig.

Fwiw I have a tune that makes zero smoke. Even when lugged locked in OD. Probably would get beat by my stocker in a 120 tune

With a 100% nozzle. You can empty more in the same time. It's like comparing 100% to 200%. Everything the 100% can do. The 200% could essentially empty more fuel. Or empty the same faster. In the same window of time. In my opinion making it safer on the hotter tunes. With more rpm as less PW and soi adder to get the job done.

Yes, we have had 200% nozzles idle like stock no issues. Many times over.
I was even in a customers truck not long ago with 400% did 600 in the same tune and idled almost like a stock SD. Guy works at DPPI. Very fun ride.

This seem like the old "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****" sales approach. I see a lot of technical jargon and some neat equipment, but nothing near the "proof" that was promised in the thread title.

I don't have a dog in this fight, that's just my observation from the outside looking in.

Its only a matter of time before the nutswingers come out.

Simple as can be. 2.6MS/PW 160cc from our 30% or 100%. Why pay more???

I got a flow chart with my injectors......isn't every builder doing that?

We do this per request. Every single injector we send out meets the exact spec for its size.
A lot of our sales are through our dealers so they have specs on file. Since they are the tuners and know the product we see no need. All other tuners are always welcome to call for our specs for their customers.


No offense Charles, but i'm not even going to respond to all your posts here. We all know you do everything better than anyone else can ever image. Good luck with your in devours.

I think a professional, comprehensive, and collaborative relationship between a tuner and a injector builder can meet 99% of 7.3 HUEI customer tuning needs for nozzle sizes up to and including 200%.

You are exactly right. When a builder can offer the tuner a good product the tuner can do quite well with it. We have been doing this for years with Jonathan and more recently with Jody.
Stop playing the finger pointing game with the customer and great things can happen.

Charles,
You are 100% spot on with everything you have said about what 200% nozzles can be.

However...

It's posts like yours that drives me nuts dealing with customers who blindly believe everything they read online and want to jump on the 200% bandwagon feet first.

Why can't you emphasize to the average Joe how many hours you have spent live tuning your own truck?
You brought Mike O into your post, why can't you emphasize how many hours he has live tuning his own truck?

200% nozzles will be a HUGE disappointment without live tuning.
Don't lead the average 7.3 owner to think his truck will be the miracle your truck is by just swapping in 200% nozzles and doing nothing else and going about his day.

Sorry Tim, not relevant to your post, I know.
Did DynoProven tell you to test at the parameters that you did?

:thumbsup:

Just some of the parameters we use every day.

I'll put in my 2 cents. 30% nozzles work for 95% of guys wanting new injectors.. In the end we really need to think. How many people buy injectors and go on a forum? Most guys are construction workers, retired people towing their rvs and just want alittle extra power, etc.

EXACTLY, we sell more of these than anything. Unfortunetly a product with a smaller margin. But we are still happy they are getting quality product none the less.

Tim, it appears that your 30% may be a bit larger than what I am used to seeing for a 30% nozzle. Can you repeat the first test you showed here with a stock nozzle and one of your 30% nozzles side by side?

Its very possible Matt. We pour more $$$, time and DEVELOPMENT into every set that comes through our shop. I can guarantee that without a doubt.
I'll see what we can do for you.

Wanted to test this theory for ourselves...

We just ordered up a set of 160/30 to install for a customer that wanted out of his old school stage 1s.

This will be our only experience with 30s and 7.3s. We use 30% a lot of the 6.0 crowd. Never had much issue with 80s or 100s though in the 7.3 world

Find out what your previous PW was calling for? Your current setup? and what your tuning uses for 160/100%..

Sorry for such a long post. And this is not proofed for spelling. Hope this helps:D
 
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ja_cain

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Tim,

It means a lot to me that you had the intestinal fortitude to post what you did and then respond to the criticisms in a tactfull way. I like threads like this because I feel that I learb so much by watching the debate and more importantly the specifics that are revealed through said debate. I can definitely appreciate the synergy of an injector builder and tuner working together. In the future this will have a huge bearing on who I buy injectors and tunes from.

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Tim @ P.I.S.

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Whose nuts do I swing on, dick?

Why come in swinging but get all defensive?

And suddenly change your sig before you reply???

This thread is for education. The 160/100% injector is an ancient design all the way around. If one needs more than what our 160/30 can do, guess what we offer that too!

Injectors are as different as tuners are different. 99% of consumers just are not educated as much as they should be.
 

V-Ref

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Curious, but do you even know how long it takes to flow 400cc out a 200% nozzle??

The actual PW needed to inject 400cc out of 200% nozzle would depend on ICP and internal injector modifications given factors such as IDM, oil/fuel viscosity, and injector type were the same :evil

I can't publicly disclose how fast these injectors are because...well...it's Top Secret :lookaround:

If you don't use that 400cc. why have it???

The 400cc capacity was so to accomodate potential future power goals with a nozzle swap.

Our 160/30 empty in nearly half the time your 400/200 emptys in.

This is like saying a truck with a 5 gallon gas tank runs out of gas 4 times as fast as a truck with a 20 gallon gas tank.

You're a respected injector builder....what advantages are there to "emptying" an injector. I don't think this is what you meant to advocate here, but some may read it that way.

It looks like the limitations of the 7.3 fuel delivery system, and head flow, limit fuel only power potential to about 700-750 hp...would you agree? So if that's the case, why do you sell any injector with a larger capacity than a B-Code with a 200% nozzle on it?

In your Development of your injectors, haven't you seen an advantage to injector refill between injection events, by not totally emptying the injector of fuel (the area that transitions from tan to red on the lower part of the injector body in the video below for those that (like me or others that aren't injector builders) might not understand the HEUI injector very well), especially at high RPMs where time to refil is extremely small?

But you "just not seeing the advantage to stretching out the injection event." :shrug:

I'm just not seeing the atomization "advantage" that a 30% nozzle would have based of my experience with Unlimited Diesel's Skunk Works Hybrids/200% nozzles and Gearhead Area 51 tuning. I mean the truck runs great, idles great, cold weather start/operations are stock or smoother than stock, 18-19 mpg as a ZF6 consistently, tows, and makes all the power you could ever want in a DD street driven truck. You've got customers just like me....how do you convince them that a 30% nozzle would make thier truck run better?

I respond not from a adversarial perspective, but rather one trying to understand the point of this thread, achieve answers to the questions I posed above, and share/increase knowledge of a truck that we're all enthusiastic & passioniate about despite it not having been built in 10+ years :fordoval:

http://youtu.be/FOe6L5ZsIn0
 
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V-Ref

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For us that aren't that savy in diesel tuning, could someone explain what PW vs rpm vs ICP vs HPO means tuning wise.

Thanks

Billy T.
[email protected]

Billy

I respect the opinions of folks like Gearhead, Nate, Golfer, Blowby, 907Dave, Charles, there's this guy that builds Hot Rod Lawn Tractors and such... and other 50 lb brain types....and I hope they post up answers that are better then my .5 lb brain ones...

But....here's a go at it...

The mechanical injection window from Start of Injection (SOI), to the end of the injection event in terms of mechanical crank angle in relation to TDC is a static "mechanical" window.

As RPM increases, so does piston speed. The mechanical window stays the same, however the "time" associated for the injection event decreases with engine rpm.

The hydraulic limitations of the HPO side of the injector to recover between injection events for an individual injector, as well as the IDM/solenoid side of the injector sytem start to create some fuel delivery limitations at higher rpm.

If you increase "timing" or when the SOI starts too far, in order to create more "time" for the injection event, you increase cylinder pressure, and therefore torque....to the point of internal engine component failure.

Modifications to increase the "speed" and "quality" of the injection event, and decrease the time necessary for the injector to "recover" between those events, are what injector builders have worked very hard at developing, and are very close hold about.

I believe Unlimited Diesel injectors have actual alien technology they are so fast, and Gearhead tuning has used this in his ability to put a customers cell phone up to the PCM on a 7.3 and decide what tuning (if any) changes need to be made.

Here's some video of Matt wrecking cars using an Alien Tractor Beam system disguised as crash barrier testing.

http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46311
 
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ja_cain

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V-ref,

That's some good stuff. Thanks for posting the eui video. I love threads like this especially when someone presents questions in a very tactfull way like you are doing. I don't care for the drama though.

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DocBar

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When I read Charles' posts... I feel like a genius/idiot at the same time LOL
So you think you're Charles? LOL
I'd love to spend a weekend with him and pick his brains. The dude is as good or better than most "pro" tuners.
 

mwx5

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We have been building "BETTER FUEL" injectors for several years now. We take a different approach to HEUI injectors then most apparently. As other brands have been sent in for repair/modify over the years. If some of you only knew what you had paid good money for actually flowed on a flow bench.

This is a typical post of yours from what I have seen, how much better you are than everyone else. Be careful, you sound like that Farmer guy and look where he is now.
Educating the forums is one thing, beating your own chest is totally different.
I'm still unclear which was your intention here.
I am very happy in my injector decision. I paid nearly $300 LESS for my 160/100% than you sell your 160/30%, and my truck runs great.
I even got to watch mine flow tested and know what they flow, thanks for your concern though.
 

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