My 7.3 issues

[lincolnlocker]

double check hpo rail fittings and ebpv actuator rod. the orings around the rod are knkw for leaking

live life full throttle

 

[mn_sclb]

Speaking of ebp, one thing I noticed is that my ebpv is supposed to be deleted. But my pedestal still has the cylinder where it was, there is no rod so I doubt there is an actuator, along with the connector being disconnected, broken, and sitting near the for. But on torque my ebp value was like 500+ psi.. Call me crazy but that doesn't even seem physically possible .


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[mn_sclb]

I'm gonna take this as a sort of forced opportunity to do an oil change, and to clean the Val. To better see the leak


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[bluedge8]

Sorry I haven't called you, been super busy. Simple green is very good at cleaning these things up.

 

[lincolnlocker]

oil eater gets my vote

live life full throttle

 

[mn_sclb]

the circled parts are where there are seemingly small puddles of oil. But they are both deep enough to at least go up to the first joint of my middle finger.
I can't see farther than the 2nd circled area so I assume it's there too

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[Arisley]

Is that you motor or just a pic you snagged. I like the fuel feed lines on that motor.

If there is oil in the valley, you have to clean it all out, if you wash it out it will drain out that hole it the back passenger side of the valley. That oil can be coming from the HPOP, the pedestal, the HPO rails or the HPO lines. You have to clean it, run it and observe with a light while it is running to find the leak.

 

[mn_sclb]

That's just a pic I snagged from google haha. There was too much stuff in the way to take a good pic myself


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[lincolnlocker]

Is that you motor or just a pic you snagged. I like the fuel feed lines on that motor.

If there is oil in the valley, you have to clean it all out, if you wash it out it will drain out that hole it the back passenger side of the valley. That oil can be coming from the HPOP, the pedestal, the HPO rails or the HPO lines. You have to clean it, run it and observe with a light while it is running to find the leak.

whs^^^ spot on.. and while its running please for the love of god dont forget about the fan spinning!!!!

live life full throttle

 

[Lethalthreat7.3]

Reading through this i had to think about how to post a reply. This is long winded so I apologize.

Using this forum is great, a lot of experience and knowledge.

You stated (originally) several things regarding gp's, starting and irregular idle and rev issues.
New batteries, new starter and I believe a start relay. I believe you stated a cable started "smoking". ALL of these issues can be attributed to bad cables. This increases amperage draw which can toast ALL of those components.
EXTREMELY critical are the ground circuits. Bad grounds can cause erratic signals to the pcm, most precisely it can (and does cause erratic/intermittent) issues with the DC sine wave generated by the cps.
It was stated that you didn't want to just throw $$$$ at it however I saw where you where going to replace all the sensors, why? Now if you find obvious issues, oil soaked icp, well then replace it. Many people have stated this is an indication of a bad sensor, they know from experience.
One thing that has to be understood is that the pcm is a computer. No different than any pc in that it requires inputs and based upon those the programming, written code, is based on those inputs. You can change all sorts of things simply by using potentiometers or resistors to "fool" the pcm into doing something. There are mins/maxs on sensors before codes are set and many work together.
With that being said the sensors have a voltage reference(5vdc), ground and a signal return. Some sensors use these dedicated 3-wires, others use 2-wires using a ref voltage and signal return and engine ground while others use a single wire sending power to the sensor with an engine ground.
All of these sensors have parameters based on pressure or resistance.. Take the EOT, it drops resistance as the oil temp increases, increasing the voltage signal returned to the pcm. The throttle pedal uses a potentiometer which changes resistance depending on pedal position which in-turn changes the signal return to the pcm.

Don't just change components, sensors and parts. That's what 99% of shops seem to do anymore. I recently traded the use of a shop bay(truck work) for repairing a pos Suzuki Grand Vitara. They had 5 guys trying to fix the dam thing for over a month. The manager was told he was fired monday morning it it was still there. The problem came down to a crankshaft position sensor issue(has crankshaft as well as two camshaft sensors). It was reading one thing while the two others were reading something else. PCM was confused because cams run the injectors while crank fired the coils. I can't tell you how many things they "threw" at it. Again, the pcm has written code based on inputs.

GP's reading 0. They should have a resistance of 1.0-1.2ohms. You MUST have a good meter with a 200ohm scale. If you read 0 how could that be a harness issue? Loose should increase resistance(not always), an open circuit wouldn't read anything. Reading 0 is the same as touching your leads together. The resistance is what causes them to heat when current is passed through them back to the engine ground. No resistance equals bad GP's.

I've gone on for quite a bit but I feel this type of testing is crucial. It has to be done correctly otherwise you are just throwing $$$ at it.

Btw, Hall Effect switches are magnetic pickups. TFI modules in distributors, VSS from rearends/transmissions and our notorious CPS or CAMP. An AC sine wave is created when a "sprocket" type ring is passed by the magnetic pickup/sensor. In the case of the CPS it uses a Darlington amplifier and a Schmitt trigger to convert it to a DC sine wave signal back to the PCM. The test for this is to pull the IDM relay. A voltage of 0.3 to 2.7vdc is generated on the signal return when cranking it over by hand. The 7.3 uses a slightly different gap on the camshaft "ring" before cyl#1 and a different one before cyl#4. The pcm "sees" this difference, wether it speeds up or slows down, to "time".
I believe someone said they might use a "Hall Effect" sensor to read voltage to the GPR. Nope. Use of an "inductance" pickup is needed to read the amperage draw. shunts "isolate or suppress" RFI and EMI. Diodes are simply "one-way" electrical gates.

Sorry about the rant.

 

[ja_cain]

Reading through this i had to think about how to post a reply. This is long winded so I apologize.

Using this forum is great, a lot of experience and knowledge.

You stated (originally) several things regarding gp's, starting and irregular idle and rev issues.
New batteries, new starter and I believe a start relay. I believe you stated a cable started "smoking". ALL of these issues can be attributed to bad cables. This increases amperage draw which can toast ALL of those components.
EXTREMELY critical are the ground circuits. Bad grounds can cause erratic signals to the pcm, most precisely it can (and does cause erratic/intermittent) issues with the DC sine wave generated by the cps.
It was stated that you didn't want to just throw $$$$ at it however I saw where you where going to replace all the sensors, why? Now if you find obvious issues, oil soaked icp, well then replace it. Many people have stated this is an indication of a bad sensor, they know from experience.
One thing that has to be understood is that the pcm is a computer. No different than any pc in that it requires inputs and based upon those the programming, written code, is based on those inputs. You can change all sorts of things simply by using potentiometers or resistors to "fool" the pcm into doing something. There are mins/maxs on sensors before codes are set and many work together.
With that being said the sensors have a voltage reference(5vdc), ground and a signal return. Some sensors use these dedicated 3-wires, others use 2-wires using a ref voltage and signal return and engine ground while others use a single wire sending power to the sensor with an engine ground.
All of these sensors have parameters based on pressure or resistance.. Take the EOT, it drops resistance as the oil temp increases, increasing the voltage signal returned to the pcm. The throttle pedal uses a potentiometer which changes resistance depending on pedal position which in-turn changes the signal return to the pcm.

Don't just change components, sensors and parts. That's what 99% of shops seem to do anymore. I recently traded the use of a shop bay(truck work) for repairing a pos Suzuki Grand Vitara. They had 5 guys trying to fix the dam thing for over a month. The manager was told he was fired monday morning it it was still there. The problem came down to a crankshaft position sensor issue(has crankshaft as well as two camshaft sensors). It was reading one thing while the two others were reading something else. PCM was confused because cams run the injectors while crank fired the coils. I can't tell you how many things they "threw" at it. Again, the pcm has written code based on inputs.

GP's reading 0. They should have a resistance of 1.0-1.2ohms. You MUST have a good meter with a 200ohm scale. If you read 0 how could that be a harness issue? Loose should increase resistance(not always), an open circuit wouldn't read anything. Reading 0 is the same as touching your leads together. The resistance is what causes them to heat when current is passed through them back to the engine ground. No resistance equals bad GP's.

I've gone on for quite a bit but I feel this type of testing is crucial. It has to be done correctly otherwise you are just throwing $$$ at it.

Btw, Hall Effect switches are magnetic pickups. TFI modules in distributors, VSS from rearends/transmissions and our notorious CPS or CAMP. An AC sine wave is created when a "sprocket" type ring is passed by the magnetic pickup/sensor. In the case of the CPS it uses a Darlington amplifier and a Schmitt trigger to convert it to a DC sine wave signal back to the PCM. The test for this is to pull the IDM relay. A voltage of 0.3 to 2.7vdc is generated on the signal return when cranking it over by hand. The 7.3 uses a slightly different gap on the camshaft "ring" before cyl#1 and a different one before cyl#4. The pcm "sees" this difference, wether it speeds up or slows down, to "time".
I believe someone said they might use a "Hall Effect" sensor to read voltage to the GPR. Nope. Use of an "inductance" pickup is needed to read the amperage draw. shunts "isolate or suppress" RFI and EMI. Diodes are simply "one-way" electrical gates.

Sorry about the rant.

Good stuff. The military used to teach good methods for troubleshooting circuits not sure were these "techs" are learning their methods for troubleshooting stuff. Vehicles are so electronic/sensor dependent that you better have a good handle on the stuff or you are going to suck and just throw parts at the problem. I remember we had automated test equipment for one of our newer radio systems. If there was ever more than one component bad then it greatly reduced the probability that it would narrow the problem down to the correct module. I used to laugh at the techs that would just "pop and swap" because they didn't feel confident enough to use an o'scope or spectrum analyzer (if there was a tuning/frequency issue) correctly.

The "Hall Effect" sensor was for reading current not voltage of the gp circuit (if you were referring to something I posted).

 

[Arisley]

I want an O-scope and a spectrum analyzer bad. Even cheap ones are out of my price range.

Lethal, good post, I agree with most of it, that I don't agree with is simply semantics and not important enough to even point out. It was accurate with a couple incorrect terms, they did make it way more understandable though.

 

[Lethalthreat7.3]

Ja cain, i understand exactly what you are talking about. One of my mos' was 72e trained using cold-war era equipment. Do you remember the old "Tripoli" commo we tried to use in the 80's.

I was just trying to explain the function of the various switches( and how a couple worked as an example) A lot being tossed around and can some to get very confused.

Yes, through "inductance", an amperage clamp measures the current traveling through the wire. A single strand of wire can carry 12v but won't carry current/amperage.m

As resistance increases because of corroded cables in this case, it causes an increase in amperage or "pressure" which equals heat. This takes its toll on EVERYTHING.
In this case the wire is so corroded it caused smoke.

I always try using the example of a garden hose. Voltage is the same as flow. If you have a trickle or full flow the fluid(voltage) is moving from point A to point B, the circuit. A trickle will still get you wet but won't really do anything(a single strand will carry voltage but not amperage)
Pressure (amperage) builds in the hose(wire) trying to supply the volume required to power the device or component. Hoses are sized according to flow capacity, say using gpm to give the required "volume". The volume can be change depending on pressure.
Wires are sized to to deliver the required Volume/Current( amperage/pressure ) to a component. If you try to "draw" to much through an under sized wire it gets hot and something burns up,( fuse, relay, terminal component).Think of a hose that is undersized but you crank the pressure up trying to compensate for it to try and obtain the needed volume, "Pop" hose blows (fuse blows/circuit burns).
Corrosion built up inside a cable is like stuffing twigs inside your garden hose but still trying to get the same flow.
With corrosion (resistance) and electricity, heat is produced due to the increased pressure(amperage) created as the component still demands its current to operate.(fuse pops/something burns).
This is what occurred when the "battery cable" information was given.

Resistance created through bad conductivity of signals from sensors wether it be corrosion, loose pins or frayed wires can cause erroneous readings and the pcm functions based on inputs.

Knowing this, resistance can change the signal being returned to the pcm which programs accordingly. So as an example(not to ANY scale), lets say the engine is actually at 100*, the sensor changes resistance depending on temperature which changes the signal output sent to the pcm. If the sensor returns a signal saying the engine is 200* because of a bad sensor or increased resistance because of corrosion or loose pin, that changes timing, soi or sets codes due to conflict of others sensors or "out of range". So in this scenario the pcm thinks the engine is warmed up but its really cold and injection timing and pw are incorrect due to the incorrect input.

I get long winded but just try to help or teach anyone. Most programming is pretty sound but ALL are based on inputs from engine sensors. The hard part and critical part is to get a sensor to output correctly to give "true" conditions and transmit that signal through all the wiring and connectors to the pcm without changing that signal return reading.
If you can can get clean signals, they run smooth, "as programmed".

 

[Arisley]

Perfectly worded for the masses. Exactly as my electronics instructor taught me back in the bad old days.

We were working with a lot of vacuum tubes though.

 

[Lethalthreat7.3]

That's how i was taught as well.

 

[TyCorr]

I was taught to call or ask either of you, lol!

 

[cbf9703]

I was taught to call or ask either of you, lol!

This. LOL

 

[TyCorr]

I think the OP should toss some 300cc injectors with 600% nozzles in and tune it up. A few 2.5 ms tunes and then some wot runs...cook the naughty right outta that truck. Like a sauna for a 7.3.

 

[mn_sclb]

I've learned a lot hunting down this trucks problems, and I don't even know how many hours or reading/watching similar issues. It's all pretty interesting to me so I don't mind. Basically every sensor I check seems to be bad, but with 310,344k I don't expect them to be good. But almost everything the motor needs being like $150 avg I can't just throw parts at it mindlessly. That was a nice explanation of the electrical system btw, good read. Torque is good but it's just not showing me enough and I'd like to be able to actually test. Ipr seems low, icp @ idle is like 450, ect doesn't work, eot seems normal, eop appears to just be a dummy gauge, ebp is like 600+ constantly . Basically it starts right up every time, has no blowby at startup. Then once it's up to operating temp it gets blowby like in the original video, and very slightly smokes (more like a haze) at idle but then goes away at higher rpms . Driving it seems like it has no boost. It's not like a loss of power, until about 50mph. compared to my work truck (a l99 f350 stock 160k) it seems way more powerful but that thing has seen better days. It will not stop smoking though, if you go wot it will smoke through every gear, any speed, doesn't matter. I've just been leaving the truck alone for the last 2 weeks or so, I know it's not running quite right so there's just no reason to push it and make it worse.


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[mn_sclb]

300/600? Is that an actual thing?


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