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Message: [QUOTE="713Diesel, post: 444143, member: 7173"] I hear both sides on this topic. I consider myself non bias on most of discussions that happen on these forums because I am the guy that is perfectly content with the delete, intake, straight pipe and tune. I am not a "fan boy" or have any sort of alliance with any shop or distributor. I would like everyone to check my facts/logic/recollection of what I am about to say as I am by no means trying to pretend to be an expert. I think the main issue is the good ole "while you are there" reasoning. As many of us know this way of thought can add up really quick. Three 400 dollar while you are there's add up to 1200 which is a good sum of money to a guy like me. I agree with some of the items, not this one in particular, that mad man brought up on some of these mods really don't have any hard evidence for back up. Also opinions seem to have changed in the last 4 years and I know some of that has to do with progression but I think some of it was just hype. The one that comes to mind is a wastegate. A few years back this was one of those things that you did "while you were there" when you were doing studs on a basic truck (stock turbo's stock fuel). Now guys are saying that they really aren't needed on stock turbo's but if two years ago I spend a lot of time on R&D for a wastegate I am going to want to sell some kits to get my money back. As stated before please let me know if I am not correct on that one. I will also agree with mad man on if you upgrade the push rods what is the next weak link (I would assume rockers?) and if that breaks what sort of potential damage happens then. I think the following are some of the items that people say "while you are there" are they really necessary and what sort of gains do they really get? Before I start I know that it is hard to do just one mod at a time to do a before and after comparison. 1. Head work. does port and polishing, bigger valves, better springs, pushrods etc get a noticeable difference? Conventional thought says yes it has to. I think we can all agree that none of these items are cheap and I know some of them really might not fall into the "while you are there" category. My issue is do these motors really respond to these mods? On a small block Chevy they respond like a mofo but on the old modular Ford motor motors they just don't justify the money at all. This is where I will disagree with mad man and say that I think the couple of hundred bucks for the pushrods is a good idea based on what I read about the deflection. I think that is a good "while you are there". 2. Exhaust manifolds. Anyone that looks at the 6.4 exhaust manifolds will say that there is room for improvement. My question is has anyone done a true before and after with the 6.0 manifolds? Is there the potential that Ford/International knew what they were doing with the 6.4 manifolds and they are actually not as bad as we all think? They might flow less but could that be better for whatever reason for this motor? For the record I think the 6.0's are a great option but I want to know what sort of upgrade I am getting. There was a bunch of hype on the Steed Speed manifolds and that isn't turning out so good as of now........ is there the chance that the 6.0's aren't that good either for this motor? 3. Intake manifold. Guys were saying it will add hp for sure. Then I think no one came up with real numbers. Then everyone said well even if it doesn't add hp you are still getting air flow to the two back cylinders that aren't getting air with the stock manifold so you aren't going to burn up those pistons. There has been much debate. 4. LPFP. First off let me say I think this is a good idea for the better/easier to get to filters and all around is a good idea. When guys first started doing these I believe they said they will give you more rail pressure and allow you to run bigger nozzles and ported fuel rails and you will make more power. I think recently someone said they got no more hp or rail pressure BUT the pressure didn't dip BUT they still didn't get any more hp so the fuel pressure dip wasn't hurting performance right? Now guys are saying that if you upgrade the LPFP it will help the life of the HPFP. Ok....... have we reached the point where we are trying to justify our purchase? Once again I want to reiterate that I am not calling anyone out or trying to be a smart ass, I am just asking the question. 5. Wastegates/BOV. Some guys say to do them some guys say don't. 6. The cold air side pipe coming out of the intercooler/heat exchanger. A bunch of people have products and I will agree that the factory Ford design is pretty sorry but I think the general consensus is that no one can feel a difference and the EGT's aren't very different. Is the factory design hurting us that much? 7. Intercooler. I have not heard about these in quite sometime which leads me to believe they are not worth the money. I don't think there has been that many stock failures and when guys do change them out I am not sure if they ever felt the gain was worth the money. 8. Batmo's. I know there was a big long thread about this and I might get the facts incorrect on this one. Which one works? The LP the HP or both? What kind of gains does it really get OR is like the batmo's on a Dmax where there is really little gain but EGT's go down? I think everyone has decided that the HP is good but don't do the LP since there is not much to gain. These are all the items that I can think of at the moment that have been the "while you are there" when you got your cab lifted up in the air. I know some of these items can be done with the cab on, some of them have to, but it also goes back to the other phrase of "do it all at once and do it right the first time". The question to both of these phrases is what is really necessary and what do I have to gain so I can make an educated decision on what I am going to do "while I am there". IMO there is a huge problem in the aftermarket world with hype and actual performance. Personally I don't care if your Pipe/heads/valves/HPFP/LPFP/manifolds/nozzles/whatever will flow X amount of CFM more than stock or pump X amount GPM more than stock. I don't think it is too much to ask what sort of HP gains or added reliability will I see from said mod before I shell out my hard earned cash on a product. I know this is not necessarily an easy thing to do. If I was to make a performance product specifically for the 6.4 I would test that product and only that product on a before and after dyno run on the same truck. I don't think this is asking for too much. If you are already spending so much on R&D on the product what does this test cost? Some might say what sort of truck do you do the test on. My response would be do it on the truck that is most common. Other than a handful of guys doing radical builds most of us have the mods that you can do without lifting the cab. Delete , tune, CAI, Straight pipe, DP and the cold side pipe. Sorry for being long winded. I have made my list several times of things that I am going to do "while I am there" if heaven forbid my HG decide to start leaking. That list has changed several times. I think this has to do with what mad man is fighting right now which is does it really need to be changed? Is stock good enough? Is this product over hyped? What sort of gains will I see? Has anyone confirmed the claimed gains? Is the money worth the claimed gains? IMO there are several products that can't answer those questions and if they can then they are highly debated. Once again I want to say one last time that I am not calling anyone out, I am just asking the questions that are on my mind. If I buy product X what sort of HP can I expect so I can make the educated decision if the gain is worth the money. If I buy product X for reliability explain to me why it is an improvement so I can make the educated decision if it is worth the money to potentially save a 10k motor. [/QUOTE]