Looking at a project

[sleeps]

care to expound how the head material influences hp gain over against tq gain? if they are made to the identical design?

I wish i could but I don't have the knowledge to explain that phenomenon. Just like short headers build more torque than horsepower and long tubes build more horsepower than torque. And an h-pipe exhaust system will build more torque than horsepower as compared to an x pipe system that builds more horsepower than torque. I just know it from experience on street cars that we've built for people in gassers. Most just end up going with an aluminum head i n the end anyways for all the pluses and are careful with watching heat and know the possibility of warpage if you overheat. That's why when most people come to me wanting to build a street car that haven't had anything more than stock or bolt ons, I suggest a cast iron head until they get used to watching gauges and being cautious and are ready to step up to an aluminum head. (Usually with better design and choices from a cast head)

Aluminum is SO much easier to port too.

Biggest thing though in my opinion...aluminum heads can be welded up and repaired.

 

[TooMuch03]

based on the fact that they dont line up and if they do, they dont seal. there is a whole thread on them but i cant seem to find it.
aren't these the empire performance rejects?

This was just brought up again in the 6.4 thread, and once again the end verdict is they were junk.

How many people posting in that thread had any first hand experience with the heads that West is currently selling? I prefer to get information from those who do have the first hand experience. Perhaps it would behoove you to do the same, rather than perpetuating rumors. Remember, there are two sides to every story.

 

[ford rules]

How many people posting in that thread had any first hand experience with the heads that West is currently selling? I prefer to get information from those who do have the first hand experience. Perhaps it would behoove you to do the same, rather than perpetuating rumors. Remember, there are two sides to every story.

http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44549
Heres the most recent thread, maybe you can contact empire diesel so they can tell you why they rejeced them.

 

[kdogg85]

I did talk with the foundry today, they are saying casting the whole head 1.25" taller and finishing out injector cups, and smoothing the ports, minus the valve job, guides, things like that, is roughly $3100. He said figure about $6500 minimum for billet, that's out. The fun part is going to be the conversation with arp and A1 about studs, that ought to be pretty. The design they sent me was very neat and the flow paths are kind of wild.

The flanges for the intakes and headers are going to be water jetted, out of 1/2" stainless, I liked that better for welding purposes.

Did get the drivetrain out, and got a good bit of the firewall stripped, going to start recessing it back all I can, and then wait until my heads get done before making brackets. This is going to be a few months of work.

 

[ford rules]

This could be interesting, ill be watching for sure!!!

 

[kdogg85]

I hope it works out, I'm really banking on not having the problems associated with big runners on an N/A engine, hoping the forced induction and smaller total volume of the intakes vs a tunnel ram style intake, and being a straight shot at the turbines,will make the chargers light off super low. I'm thinking of spinning a couple s300 size with tight housings to start off with, if all works out well, I'll have a good idea on what turbine housings to go with.

The fuel side is where things are looking to get interesting, I've been given an idea and it looks very feasible, if I go with the idea, it's really gonna test the big oil setup.

 

[sootie]

How many people posting in that thread had any first hand experience with the heads that West is currently selling? I prefer to get information from those who do have the first hand experience. Perhaps it would behoove you to do the same, rather than perpetuating rumors. Remember, there are two sides to every story.

So then stop posting here and get on the phone to west racing to get their side of the story. It doesn't get more firsthand than that. And as for me "perpetrating rumors" I was simply drawing attention to something I read as a precaution so nobody got screwed over. You have already seen in the other thread that was linked that people tried it and had failures. "Sides of a story" doesn't change fact...


(sorry for the derail op)

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

A-1 is no longer making studs, so that's out.

And I would leave the verdict on the heads to some people who have them and are running them. I know a few people with them on RUNNING engines.

Once again I think your project looks cool. But idk if it will fall within the budget.

See where this goes from here.

Oh, and who says the material of the heads dictates what kind of power it makes? The material is just that, material. The design is what makes the power. We aren't talking about gas motors and bolt on smallblock stuff here. A lot of the crap you read in catalogs and advertisements in hotrod magazine are so wrong it's not even funny. Please don't compare cylinder heads to x-pipes and short tube headers.

Sorry for the rant,

 

[sleeps]

A-1 is no longer making studs, so that's out.

And I would leave the verdict on the heads to some people who have them and are running them. I know a few people with them on RUNNING engines.

Once again I think your project looks cool. But idk if it will fall within the budget.

See where this goes from here.

Oh, and who says the material of the heads dictates what kind of power it makes? The material is just that, material. The design is what makes the power. We aren't talking about gas motors and bolt on smallblock stuff here. A lot of the crap you read in catalogs and advertisements in hotrod magazine are so wrong it's not even funny. Please don't compare cylinder heads to x-pipes and short tube headers.

Sorry for the rant,

The difference in material from cast iron to aluminum will make the power outcome different from heat dissipation alone. No matter any other factors. The aluminum is going to flex and move under heat and pressure too. That's why you sleeve aluminum blocks. Under stress the bores would warp and you would lose ring seal. Airflow and the laws of thermodynamics do not Carr if your engine is gas or diesel powered.

I don't read this "crap" from a magazine. It is from personal experience. Now, do i have a flow bench or constant access to a dyno? No. Although you are right that most of what is in magazines are very very wrong.

I if it came across that I was comparing head flow design to headers and exhaust systems, that isn't what I intended. I just meant there are certain factors at play to achieving whatever your end goal might be and that many go unnoticed. Like people thinking a header is a header, or any exhaust is exhaust but not know that a different type, design, small variation or material habe different outcomes and what is ideal for one person may not be ideal for what you want.

 

[kdogg85]

If this was for competition, then sure, I would use the lightest highest horsepower producing everything. What I'm after is flow, doesn't matter the material is cut from, a 1" in hole will only flow so much.

Btw, firewall forward is fully stripped, gonna pressure was everything this afternoon. Will be dropping of the crank, rods, and pistons in the morning and having the big talk and seeing the plaster casts of the heads. Depending on what I do for injectors will determine when they can be made.

Since headers have been brought up, wonder what would be the trick in style, tri-y or 4-1?

 

[bft blue oval boys]

Is that foundry planning to sell duplicates of those heads your planning on or just a one off for you?

They need to make 6.4 heads too

Sent from a Cummins plant, driving a TDI, wishing it was a Powerstroke

 

[kdogg85]

I'm sure they would make you anything you would want.

I'm working on relocating the ficm to behind the glove box, gonna be a long run of wire. Almost at a standstill, truly. I did make my fuel supply system up, a1000 water sep, filter. That killed about an hour.

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

The difference in material from cast iron to aluminum will make the power outcome different from heat dissipation alone. No matter any other factors. The aluminum is going to flex and move under heat and pressure too. That's why you sleeve aluminum blocks. Under stress the bores would warp and you would lose ring seal. Airflow and the laws of thermodynamics do not Carr if your engine is gas or diesel powered.

I don't read this "crap" from a magazine. It is from personal experience. Now, do i have a flow bench or constant access to a dyno? No. Although you are right that most of what is in magazines are very very wrong.

I if it came across that I was comparing head flow design to headers and exhaust systems, that isn't what I intended. I just meant there are certain factors at play to achieving whatever your end goal might be and that many go unnoticed. Like people thinking a header is a header, or any exhaust is exhaust but not know that a different type, design, small variation or material habe different outcomes and what is ideal for one person may not be ideal for what you want.

Soooo, two heads, built to exact same dimensions and standards. Your saying there will be a big hp to torque swing? That's funny. I've never seen that in all the different ones I've dyno'd. I've seen more to do with flow numbers at given lifts, valve angles, valve design, port design ...... Etc.

But maybe I'm wrong. I guess when we were building A-head 540 bbf's using ex514 and tfs a460 heads that the ex514 in cast iron should have been torque monsters then right? But the aluminum tfs heads were probably gutless high revving all hp motors..... Even though they were the exact same head, one cast iron and one aluminum?

Seriously the only difference is heat dissipation, ease of material to work with and sheer weight. NOT HP AND TORQUE.

But I guess I'm wrong, and the material the head is made of is what determines how an engine must run.

I guess ill just step out of this since I'm not needed here.

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

Not trying to be a d*ck but I get tired of people saying that "well I put aluminum heads on my small block and it lost torque and gained hp"

That's because of the port design, chamber and port volume, combustion cc and how that all reacts using atmospheric pressure to force it in the cylinder. Not because they were aluminum, it was the design of the head. I can tell you there would be maybe 1% difference because of the material it's made out of, all other factors kept exactly the same.

So generally saying that being aluminum makes hp just because of the material is wrong.

I agree with the rest. Of course header length, volume and design makes difference. And an x-pipe works because of scavenging affects and pressure equalization on banks of exhaust on a non turbo application. But it doesn't mean having a stainless exhaust will make more power over aluminized exhaust.

I just don't want people here thinking a general statement that aluminum heads make hp and cast iron makes torque. Especially when you can't prove it or have no other reason than "heat dissipation".

 

[Meniacal_Mark]

Based on what?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Based on what EDP said

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

Based on what EDP said

Do you have personal experience with them?

Please guys it really gets old.

As I said, there are people who have/are running them. I know they had problems early on. They have fixed that and they do work. Just because they had one or two sets screwed up does not my default mean that they all are failures.

And yes I HAVE first hand experience with them and know others as well.

 

[ford rules]

If you have first hand experience with them and know other people who have why don't you share what you have found about them? Would you spend the 10k on them? What needs to happen to make them work etc. just curious but nobody wants to share anymore details about them it seams.

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

If you have first hand experience with them and know other people who have why don't you share what you have found about them? Would you spend the 10k on them? What needs to happen to make them work etc. just curious but nobody wants to share anymore details about them it seams.

They are on a few competition trucks right now. I know one that ran all last season. I have a set on the shelf I will be doing an engine with. I know chad@edp (who sold me the ones I have) and the whole back story. I also know the ones that Aaron has and what he told me they were going on. I also know other who have them on and are currently doing builds with. Yes there were some issues that have since been corrected. Yes they are aluminum. Chad is going to a cast version now with a different company and west is still doing the multi layered heads that are advertised.

Why would anyone want them?

TURBO LIMITED FUEL ONLY COMPETITION.

You cannot support 12-1600 hp on fuel with a single, inducer limited turbo class.

People spend $100k on top pulling and drag trucks, that is what these heads are for.

It's not for the everyday joe blow. Why would you need them anyway. 1000hp on fuel with compounds is capable and more with spray (mainly 6.4's). Competition heads are for the ones who have maxed everything else out and don't have another option.

They bolt right on. The only modifications you need are valve reliefs to match the heads and cam. And the whole rest of the engine to handle the power these are capable of.

Mine flow 320cfm @ 600 lift

My stock ported flow around 200cfm in comparison.

Are they a longevity head? NO.

Are they built to make big hp? Yes.

Is there room for a better design or option out there? Yes.

That's about all I know.

Oh and they are nice and light and shiny if that helps.

 

[ford rules]

That's more of a response I've been looking for from those heads, everything else I've found on here about them was no real info other then saying they didn't fit and nothing more. Thanks for satisfying my curiosity about them lol
Sorry for the derail also to the OP!!

 

[kdogg85]

I've been part of derails before, no harm done. Good points made though.

I'm hoping just to have around 5k in these including machine work. Obviously rockers and valves will be the big extra expense. So, I'm figuring around $7500 total, not much cheaper, but I know what'll be done every step of the way. Another reason this will take a few if not several weeks of designing.

I did slice one of the oil rails in half this evening, looks like a lot of wasted space, so time to get to work on streamlining that, on top of everything else. Any reason not to attempt at a log style rail?

Any tips on header design? I've seen the log style and wonder why that seems to be more popular than a true header? Is the extra surface area causing heat loss a big factor? It looks to me that you would get better flow out of a 4-1 vs a log.