1# boost equals how much more cylinder pressure?

torque beast

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Been building several different tunes for my truck. Most have been higher timing without changing boost much. Now I'm playing with higher boost and lower timing. Looking to see if anyone knows how much cylinder pressure will increase for 1# of boost versus 1 degree of timing


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sootie

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no way to answer, way more than those two variables come into play.
 

torque beast

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I understand and I guess I asked the wrong question. I know actual pressure can't be determined with so many variables. Just looking for a close "rule of thumb" for these engines. For example if I increase boost 3#'s how much will I need to retard timing? 2 degrees? 1 degree? Ect


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97stoker350

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Boost is a measure of restriction. There's ur rule of thumb. You can make 50 lbs of boost or 30 lbs of boost and make the same amount of power. The problem lies in how much air you can get into the cylinder i.e. FLOW. I'm no expert but I would understand this stuff first and go from there. Also pressure is not uniform it is exponential. The volume of a 6.7 per cylinder is about 1.2 liters per cylinder. So if you know what ur pressure is under no boost you can find what it would be when you increase the pressure when the piston is at bottom dead center. So find ur max psi without combustion and go up in starting psi. That is where I'd start
 

torque beast

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Thank you for the reply. I do understand it is about flow not pressure. I was just hoping somebody had played with tuning with the stock turbo and would be able to tell me approximately how much timing I would need to remove when increasing boost. I have played with it some more this weekend and am close to getting it nailed down.


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DTL

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Boost without fuel, in a diesel, does not directly equal more power. I'd venture to say that you could add your 3 pounds of boost without making any other adjustments. The percentage increase in cylinder pressure would be very little. Remember, fuel is what's making power, not air, in a diesel. It's nothing like tuning a gas motor. Hope that makes sense!
 

CurtisF

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Any increase in cylinder pressure due to boost is going to be minuscule compared to the main factors of 1) how much fuel, and 2) when that fuel is delivered.

There is no rule of thumb regarding boost and cylinder pressures because it doesn't matter.

What does matter is the amount of fuel being injected, and when that injection takes place.

A good rule of thumb regarding cylinder pressure is going to be torque. The higher the torque, the greater the cylinder pressure. Think of torque as an instantaneous snapshot of what is happening at a single moment in time. In that moment, torque is telling you how much force you have available. That force that is created is due to cylinder pressure.

You can play around with torque by limiting or adding fuel at any time. Add too much fuel at the wrong time or too much at low RPM's, and something is going to break eventually.
 

Dzchey21

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Any increase in cylinder pressure due to boost is going to be minuscule compared to the main factors of 1) how much fuel, and 2) when that fuel is delivered.

There is no rule of thumb regarding boost and cylinder pressures because it doesn't matter.

What does matter is the amount of fuel being injected, and when that injection takes place.

A good rule of thumb regarding cylinder pressure is going to be torque. The higher the torque, the greater the cylinder pressure. Think of torque as an instantaneous snapshot of what is happening at a single moment in time. In that moment, torque is telling you how much force you have available. That force that is created is due to cylinder pressure.

You can play around with torque by limiting or adding fuel at any time. Add too much fuel at the wrong time or too much at low RPM's, and something is going to break eventually.

Yeah i agree with this for the most part.

Its not like a gas engine where when you increase boost you must retard timing. THe safe bet is to stick with the H&S tables for timing or even revert back to stock timing tables if you are in doubt. I think the most important thing to remember is that you need to keep the torque low and keep the power band smooth, so anything you can do to transition that will be better for the engine.

FWIW my truck made 630hp on 32 psi so even then you dont really need to make the boost higher to make more power. I just have found that at 32 psi of boost the back pressure isnt crazy. When the back pressure isnt super high the power stays decent.
 

CurtisF

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Extra food for thought..... which scenario has more cylinder pressure?

1) 300hp at 2000 RPM's making 15 lbs of boost
2) 350hp at 3000 RPM's making 30 lbs of boost

The answer is #1.

Torque output is much higher in #1 than in #2. Cylinder pressures are also much higher in #1, yet boost is lower.

In other words, boost is not an indicator of cylinder pressure. Hence no rule of thumb.
 

torque beast

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Ok. Maybe I am looking at this wrong. Here is what I was thinking. I built several tunes using different theories. I have increased timing and smoothed the table out and runs great with better mileage. I built one with even higher timing but changed turbo map to where there is no boost till 1500 or so. Now I am driving with one one that all I did was increased boost from off idle to 1600 rpm and retarded the timing a little in that area but I left boost and timing the same above 1600. What I am seeing is about 1.2 mpg increase cruising at 65-70 mph. Also notice that my truck does not downshift as much now as compared to the higher timing tunes


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torque beast

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I feel like I am very close but have a lot of ideas I want to try. Anyone interested in getting together some weekend and showing me some tips with MCC tuning? I'll buy the beer


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torque beast

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Any increase in cylinder pressure due to boost is going to be minuscule compared to the main factors of 1) how much fuel, and 2) when that fuel is delivered.

There is no rule of thumb regarding boost and cylinder pressures because it doesn't matter.

What does matter is the amount of fuel being injected, and when that injection takes place.

A good rule of thumb regarding cylinder pressure is going to be torque. The higher the torque, the greater the cylinder pressure. Think of torque as an instantaneous snapshot of what is happening at a single moment in time. In that moment, torque is telling you how much force you have available. That force that is created is due to cylinder pressure.

You can play around with torque by limiting or adding fuel at any time. Add too much fuel at the wrong time or too much at low RPM's, and something is going to break eventually.


I have not added any more fuel on the bottom but I did add a small amount up top and set boost at 27


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CurtisF

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I have not added any more fuel on the bottom but I did add a small amount up top and set boost at 27

Personally when I tune I try to keep it as close to stock at lower RPM and pretty much through... at minimum... the first 1/3rd to 1/2 of the pedal. This is where most of your daily driving and cruising happens, and there's no point in having a lot of extra fuel, or timing, or anything else that will interfere or cause changes to an otherwise fine driving truck when you're light on the pedal.

Of course I'm stuck tuning just the ancient 7.3L, but the same concept applies to the 6.7L. I've learned over the years that the more I deviate from stock when I'm trying to drive it like it's stock, the more quirks I have to deal with. There are not many exceptions to that rule when it comes to tuning.

So..... leave it stock-ish for when you want it to behave like stock, and then bring on the goodies when you dig your foot further in the pedal and want to play. It's simple, but it works. And in the end you'll find that you've actually done less work to modify the tune.

Now on the 6.7L if you're trying to add a bit of boost on the bottom end and you're seeing a mileage increase WITHOUT any detrimental effects to how it drives/behaves, then go for it. There's nothing wrong with adding a bit more air if it's available. Try it without retarding the timing and see how it runs. That little bit of extra boost isn't going to add much to cylinder pressures. Again it's fuel and timing that will be the primary factors in determining your overall cylinder pressures, and ultimately, torque output.
 

torque beast

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Personally when I tune I try to keep it as close to stock at lower RPM and pretty much through... at minimum... the first 1/3rd to 1/2 of the pedal. This is where most of your daily driving and cruising happens, and there's no point in having a lot of extra fuel, or timing, or anything else that will interfere or cause changes to an otherwise fine driving truck when you're light on the pedal.



Of course I'm stuck tuning just the ancient 7.3L, but the same concept applies to the 6.7L. I've learned over the years that the more I deviate from stock when I'm trying to drive it like it's stock, the more quirks I have to deal with. There are not many exceptions to that rule when it comes to tuning.



So..... leave it stock-ish for when you want it to behave like stock, and then bring on the goodies when you dig your foot further in the pedal and want to play. It's simple, but it works. And in the end you'll find that you've actually done less work to modify the tune.



Now on the 6.7L if you're trying to add a bit of boost on the bottom end and you're seeing a mileage increase WITHOUT any detrimental effects to how it drives/behaves, then go for it. There's nothing wrong with adding a bit more air if it's available. Try it without retarding the timing and see how it runs. That little bit of extra boost isn't going to add much to cylinder pressures. Again it's fuel and timing that will be the primary factors in determining your overall cylinder pressures, and ultimately, torque output.


ok, i will try it with my other timing table and see how it goes havent used stock timing in a while. Too much up and down and was not as smooth as mine.
 

torque beast

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whats your thoughts about increasing timing and keeping turbo from building boost till 1500? haven't laid into it but it sure drives real nice
 

CurtisF

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I'm not sure why you would want to limit the turbo that much. Trying to picture why there would be a need to cut boost until 1,500 RPM.
 

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