2004 starts....runs...then dies

[dougrock]

This has been one of the greatest plow trucks ive ever owned! but as any the brake lines needed a replacement. It took me a long time and the truck sat a bit.

I put new batteries in.... and to my amazement it started right up after sitting close to two yrs! but.......then as I was walking away to let it run a bit...it died.

I wait a day and it will start again, only to die in about a minute...same deal every day! I saw someone mentioned to pull off the wire on the CPI ...CDI...some "C" thing
and what will happen is it will run forever without that hooked up...and means that that sensor is faulty and must be replaced????

Any thoughts here? Idea's? I'm a diesel tractor guy...basic with no sensors...so this is a bit new to me Thanks!

 

[DEEZUZ]

ICP sensor? Is yours a later 04 with the ICP sensor on the passenger side valve cover?

 

[DEEZUZ]

Either way, go grab a new OEM sensor front he dealer with the new wiring pigtail, splice in new wiring, and be set.

5c3z12224a for pigtail
4c3z9f838a/an for ICP sensor. Or if your sensor is on the hpop, 3c3z9f838ea

 

[DEEZUZ]

Rare occasion there is a 5v fault down the line but this sounds like clear cut case of bad sensor and pigtail

 

[dougrock]

ICP sensor? Is yours a later 04 with the ICP sensor on the passenger side valve cover?

Honest it's like 9 degrees here....not sure if it's late or early 04...I'm thinking early 04 due to it has the leaf springs in the front...not the coil ones??
it be nice if it's late 04 the ICP is easy to get to on pass FRONT of motor...but if early 04 it may be bitchback area on pass side...is from what I've been learning...
I've yet to lift the hood.......my luck my fingers will get stuck to the hood and I'll be like that kid with his tongue stuck to the flag pole... LOL
I'm told now...that I can check that part by disconnecting it...and if the truck runs without dying...then that's the part I replace! ??

 

[dougrock]

Either way, go grab a new OEM sensor front he dealer with the new wiring pigtail, splice in new wiring, and be set.

5c3z12224a for pigtail
4c3z9f838a/an for ICP sensor. Or if your sensor is on the hpop, 3c3z9f838ea

Yes....I've see that ONLY the OEM with pigtail is the way to go! thank you for confirming that....provided this is the problem

 

[bismic]

You really need to get a scan tool. FORScan is one of the best and most economical.

Then you need to monitor some critical parameters (PIDs). To start with:

• ICP pressure
• ICP sensor voltage output
• IPR % commanded Duty Cycle
• ICP desired

Scanning for codes is important also.

Monitoring these can give added information that could save money. Monitor the parameters at KOEO, and when cranking, and when it cranks without starting.

The ICP sensor will give a low output voltage signal at KOEO when it is working properly (around .2 - .25v).

It is VERY important that you get to know your 6.0L engine. They can be great, but successful (low cost) ownership comes from doing a number of things properly and EARLY problem detection.


Obviously this engine can have issues with the high pressure oil system as they get older, or if they are ever allowed to run too hot. Because of this, you need to also monitor some temperatures - coolant (ECT) and oil (EOT). Weak points in the HPO system can be o-ring leaks (especially in late '04 and up engines, and HPOPs in ALL '03 and '04 engines). Again - you REALLY need to know which engine you have Early or Late '04)!

The early '04 engine had the '03 engine installed. A weak HPOP but fairly solid straight oil rails. The oil rails were changed in late '04 to the wavy style, and this introduced quite a few leak points (unfortunately). Also unfortunately, the late'04 still had the '03 style HPOP. It was upgraded a bit in capacity, but it still had the weak design. For reliability, these '03 and '04 HPOPs need to be upgraded to HPOP's from CNCFab or DieselSite.

FICMs (Fuel Injector Control Modules) can have high failure rates until properly upgraded - especially of battery voltage and charging is not properly maintained!

Expensive injectors can fail if fuel pressure is not kept above the required minimum (45 psig). EVERY 6.0L owner needs an add-on fuel pressure sensor and gauge.

A lot more to get to know of you want a successful ownership (like proper coolant usage and closely monitoring oil cooler performance).

 

[DEEZUZ]

Does it fire right back up afterwards?

 

[dougrock]

You really need to get a scan tool. FORScan is one of the best and most economical.

Then you need to monitor some critical parameters (PIDs). To start with:

• ICP pressure
• ICP sensor voltage output
• IPR % commanded Duty Cycle
• ICP desired

Scanning for codes is important also.

Monitoring these can give added information that could save money. Monitor the parameters at KOEO, and when cranking, and when it cranks without starting.

The ICP sensor will give a low output voltage signal at KOEO when it is working properly (around .2 - .25v).

It is VERY important that you get to know your 6.0L engine. They can be great, but successful (low cost) ownership comes from doing a number of things properly and EARLY problem detection.


Obviously this engine can have issues with the high pressure oil system as they get older, or if they are ever allowed to run too hot. Because of this, you need to also monitor some temperatures - coolant (ECT) and oil (EOT). Weak points in the HPO system can be o-ring leaks (especially in late '04 and up engines, and HPOPs in ALL '03 and '04 engines). Again - you REALLY need to know which engine you have Early or Late '04)!

The early '04 engine had the '03 engine installed. A weak HPOP but fairly solid straight oil rails. The oil rails were changed in late '04 to the wavy style, and this introduced quite a few leak points (unfortunately). Also unfortunately, the late'04 still had the '03 style HPOP. It was upgraded a bit in capacity, but it still had the weak design. For reliability, these '03 and '04 HPOPs need to be upgraded to HPOP's from CNCFab or DieselSite.

FICMs (Fuel Injector Control Modules) can have high failure rates until properly upgraded - especially of battery voltage and charging is not properly maintained!

Expensive injectors can fail if fuel pressure is not kept above the required minimum (45 psig). EVERY 6.0L owner needs an add-on fuel pressure sensor and gauge.

A lot more to get to know of you want a successful ownership (like proper coolant usage and closely monitoring oil cooler performance).

WOW! Learned a ton here! Sadly, this truck was just for plowing for me at the home front. Meaning...it sounds like from you- it be a great motor with some know how and ability it would be as they say bulletproof...but this would not be my idea of a "keeper" truck. I've been spoiled in my old days with my old tractors...they so simple without the need to hook up this or that computer thingy...or fix this or that cuz some manufacture company puked on their ability to do right by providing good parts and such. It's looking more that if I can't get this going, running just to plow I will have to let it go...but also thinking if I do get it running ok...I may sell it anyways. Know of any interested buyers in NY? I agree and have always thought it would be smart to have a fuel pressure gauge on ALL vehicles! Heck my 1965 tractor does!!!! Thank you, for this info...I've put it in my save folder and printed it! What if I change my mind and want to ...or need to do these things!?

 

[dougrock]

Does it fire right back up afterwards?

If you are asking .....if it fires right up after dying...answer is NO... I have to wait a day...or that's what I've done.....and it will run as I mentioned for a min or two but then die. It will NOT start up again till I come back later...and that just happens to be the next day...
It was a bit warmer outside today...so I lifted the hood to see if I can locate this ICP...going to have to look to see if I can find some pictures online of the location to look for it. I thought I was going to see it in my face on the pass side...I'm not so sure now...maybe it's under the turbo more near the brake master

 

[DEEZUZ]

If it's a no start when hit then chances are younindeed have an internal oil leak in the high psi oil system. Pressuring the hpo system with shop air is the best way to test this, and or remove ipr to see if there is metal debris on screen. Or if screen is punctured

 

[bismic]

If your ICP sensor is on the passenger side valve cover, refer to page 32 or picture #61 in the link below:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/ford-manuals/2004%206.0L%20Updated%20Coffee%20Table%20Book.pdf

 

[bismic]

As stated above, the best way to troubleshoot is with a scan tool.

The full version of FORScan is great, but you need a Windows laptop for it.
The Lite version of FORScan will run on an i-phone w/ an OBDII adapter.

TorquePro is best w/ Android devices.

Without them you will be guessing, or doing some testing that isn't particularly "effort free" - just to IDENTIFY the problem.

 

[dougrock]

DEEZuz and Bismic....thanks for responding! Sorry, I got sidetracked, it happens a lot! You guys are top notch!
Before coming here...I went to find a video on the location of the ICP sensor... Yes! it appears I have the late 2004! Whew! I guess the early one's are located in a rough area... But now ya's scare me.......if I have an issue with the IPR VALVE that's buried in the back firewall -hard to get to...
Question....I do not have the engine light on inside...so will the scan tool even be useful?
I'm thinking I should still disconnect the ICP sensor and see if the truck will stay running with it that way...if so...then I got lucky? and all I have to do is replace that?
It's cold here again (now don't make fun of me...when I was young, I'd change motors in the snow!) so I'm gonna wait a bit on trying the ICP trick idea
I'm going to post the video link on location of the ICP Sensor in case someone see's this post and wants to have a look...

 

[bismic]

The link I posted shows your ICP sensor location.

It helps to understand the situations where unplugging the ICP sensor actually will make a difference. Unplugging a good ICP sensor that has no wiring issues will not help a no-start. It certainly is an easy enough thing to try though, and especially because we just don't quite get enough information from the PCM on whether or not the IPR valve is actually functioning properly! Unplugging the ICP sensor when there is insufficient high pressure oil pressure for a start (leak or bad HPOP) will not enable the engine to start either.

Also, there are a lot of things that cause a no-start that are unrelated to the high pressure oil system.

If/when you do unplug the ICP sensor, you should also inspect the connector for oil soaking (leaking sensor) and for wire chafing.

The thing about the ICP and IPR is that the software (PCM) can account for some errors in the ICP sensor - by design. That said, many times issues happen when there are problems with BOTH the ICP accuracy, AND when the IPR valve is ALSO sticking or "acting up". This is why it really helps to look at ICP sensor voltage at KOEO. It should be around .2v (some small difference in model year sensors). Then we look at cranking ICP sensor voltage AND we also need to look at the IPR commanded Duty Cycle %.

What complicates things is that the IPR % Duty Cycle is a command, not an actual value.

When troubleshooting, we need to be aware that there is both a software minimum to start (500 psi), and a slightly lower "actual value" for adequate pressure for the injectors to actuate properly to enable a start (assuming a healthy fuel injection system and proper compression, etc). Again, for this reason we look for the health of the sensor (watching sensor voltage output) and watch the IPR valve commanded position.

So if the ICP sensor is reading higher than the actual pressure (bad sensor), it can reach the desired ICP sensor voltage output value before it should (ie exceeding the software/PCM minimum before it should) - this can happen with or without a sticking IPR valve. If only the ICP sensor is bad, the PCM is programmed to hopefully "catch it" and to assume a value (a value high enough to enable a start). In some cases the PCM doesn't do this, and this is when unplugging the sensor helps (unplugging it forces the PCM to assume a value).

A sticking IPR valve can cause the actual pressure value to be below the minimum pressure required to start (PCM and mechanical minimums). So this failure will significantly complicate the troubleshooting when you ALSO have a bad sensor. This situation happens when a bad ICP sensor shows good pressure at an IPR commanded duty cycle that the PCM "thinks" is appropriate (but in this described situation, the actual position of the valve is not matching the commanded value). Summary: unplugging a bad ICP sensor most likely isn't going to enable a start when the IPR valve is ALSO stuck too far open (or as stated above, if there is a bad leak or if the HPOP is bad).

To REALLY understand what is going on (as best as we can anyway), you need to monitor the following cranking information:
cranking speed, rpm.
ICP sensor volts (KOEO and cranking).
ICP desired pressure (cranking).
ICP pressure (cranking).
Commanded IPR % Duty Cycle (cranking).
FICM Sync (cranking).
Cam Crank Sync (cranking).
Injector Pulse Width command (cranking).
(also good to know what KOEO and cranking battery voltage is also - FICM LPower and also VPower will show that ..... knowing both of these voltages is important).

Lastly, like most v-reference sensors (5v), if there is a v-reference short within the ICP sensor that interferes with this system voltage, unplugging it can sometimes enable starting (y-ref sensors: ICP sensor, EBP sensor, EGR valve position, MAP, Baro, etc).

 

[dougrock]

LOL....I come back on the HOTEST day on record!...thought I'd try this ICP thing of disconnect...why did Bismic have to be right...LOL..it did nothing...
truck will start...run a min then die out...so here we go.... I think we going towards this IPR valve thing...good lord...I'm 60 with Lyme ...I just really can't climb all over or under the truck...sad those days are over I think...Anyone want to buy a truck? I'm not going to buy fancy readers or the such... How bad really is it to get to and fix this IPR if I could get a friend to help me climb all over this thing? I'm so annoyed at this stuff... Other day Tractor switch went...no big deal...by-passed it...got to use tractor to put stone back in driveway...put new switch in today...took 1 min! God I luv old stuff....then I look at this truck sitting here...what a disgrace at all accounts! Ok, that was my vent for the day

 

[bismic]

Sorry for your troubles! Once the weaknesses are addressed, they really can be good engines.

 

[dougrock]

Sorry for your troubles! Once the weaknesses are addressed, they really can be good engines.

I agree! I've seen many different motors posts online...folks address things and they got great motors! "Bulletproof" and other terms used! Now if only I could address my weakness in health and become a really good engine....I'd be all set! LOL...Thanks, I'm holding on to what ya taught me here...in case friend wants to help me tackle some of this... be well, be strong...keep'm motor's puring!

 

[bismic]

As an fyi - if you have a Windows laptop, you can download FORSCan full version free to it, and then you can buy a reasonably priced OBDII adapter for $80 or so. That will at least get you the codes (and all the PIDs you would ever care to monitor).

Also, you can monitor it with FORSCan Lite on an i-phone. You can monitor it with Torque Pro on an Android. ALL are at a very reasonable total cost ("virtually" free software, but again you have to purchase the adapter). Your call.

I hear you on age and lifestyle changes. I am a few years ahead of you (60 is in the rear view mirror, lol), and this year a shoulder replacement and a few other medical things have caused me to change my expectations of myself.

All I can say, is that as long a you don't cause undue physical risk, IMO you need to challenge yourself - at least a little bit at first and try increasing it VERY SLOWLY.

Wish you well w/ your decisions on the truck and w/ the personal decisions also!

 

[dougrock]

As an fyi - if you have a Windows laptop, you can download FORSCan full version free to it, and then you can buy a reasonably priced OBDII adapter for $80 or so. That will at least get you the codes (and all the PIDs you would ever care to monitor).

Also, you can monitor it with FORSCan Lite on an i-phone. You can monitor it with Torque Pro on an Android. ALL are at a very reasonable total cost ("virtually" free software, but again you have to purchase the adapter). Your call.

I hear you on age and lifestyle changes. I am a few years ahead of you (60 is in the rear view mirror, lol), and this year a shoulder replacement and a few other medical things have caused me to change my expectations of myself.

All I can say, is that as long a you don't cause undue physical risk, IMO you need to challenge yourself - at least a little bit at first and try increasing it VERY SLOWLY.

Wish you well w/ your decisions on the truck and w/ the personal decisions also!

You so COOL! yes again= right on all accounts! Funny U and me...little ESP! I borrowed my friends middle of the line OBD2 reader.....and.........

I came on here = to let you know I just seconds ago tried my friends OBD and it get's really weird!

First off I just put OBD in plug and turn key to on...did NOT try start motor... it gave codes P2614 and P2617....turned off key and took out the OBD...try start it run then die like before...

I then said to myself I'm going to put in OBD and Clear codes......just to see if anything new.......so with no running motor but key on...I cleared the codes...removed OBD....truck would not start after 3 tries...

OK....put OBD back in...turn key to on......got same codes as above....but this time left OBD plugged in and turned key to start....it started right up and ran for 20 minutes! ....I then turn off....try start again....start right up and run good again.....

Well I am totally miss-a-fried....lol.....It has me totally stumped....so much that I pet the fender and said good boy good boy...LOL...yes I've completely lost my mind .....LOL

Truck is now shut down by me turning key off...I unplugged the OBD....I have no clue what a-waits me when I try it again tomorrow??