4r conversion folks, any regrets?

weekendwarriorfsw32 · Oct 8, 2013

What I mainly meant to say with that you could get rid of adaptive learning.

01PSD said:
Assuming you could get it to work properly, yes.
Elite has been working with it for a while, not sure where they stand with it now.

Chris · Oct 8, 2013

Sledpull,

if you get a chance you really should drive a 6.0 or 6.4 w/ a 4r in it. The way the engine responds to the 4r makes a lot of difference. its the best part about doing the swap. the 4r swap isnt just great because it gives you a reliable transmission, its great in that it moves the truck so much better through out the entire powerband.

The reason i posted in this thread is the op asked about guys that have experience with a 4r in a truck originally equiped with a 5r. There still arent a lot of guys out there that have made the swap and there seems to be a bit of false info and confusion about the swap. It absolutely is NOT for everyone. but those that are contemplating shouldnt worry about driveability, check engine lights, or any lost functions besides cruise control at this time. We will be working on a fix for the cruise control in the next few weeks, and hopefully once thats taken care of it will fit the mold for even more folks. I wont lie, it does get old seeing "dont do this...ive SEEN, or ive HEARD, or ive BEEN AROUND" in techinical threads such as this. a lot of guys need to spend a little less time on the forum and a little more time with their hands on a truck before they offer some of the advice they do. itll make the info even more valuable on here with real world experience.

Im definately not a 5r hater. ive had great luck getting even stock ones to live at decent power levels, but at the same time ive dealt with enough of them to aknowledge their problems. once you drive a 6.0 or 6.4 w/ a 4r in it, youll have a hard time wanting anything else.

Chris · Oct 8, 2013

weekendwarriorfsw32 said:
What I mainly meant to say with that you could get rid of adaptive learning.

we can get rid of the adaptive learning w/ a stock tcm as well. The thing is the adaptive learning was created for a reason. as driving conditions, power, and all the variables in the transmission change, the synchronized shifts will change as well and the learning is there to correct that. so while the adaptive learning creates some problems, it also prevents a lot of them as well. this is the real short/simple version obviously, but the problem isnt so much that the trans has adaptive learning, its that it requires it.

Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto · Oct 8, 2013

Chris said:
Sledpull,

if you get a chance you really should drive a 6.0 or 6.4 w/ a 4r in it. The way the engine responds to the 4r makes a lot of difference. its the best part about doing the swap. the 4r swap isnt just great because it gives you a reliable transmission, its great in that it moves the truck so much better through out the entire powerband.

The reason i posted in this thread is the op asked about guys that have experience with a 4r in a truck originally equiped with a 5r. There still arent a lot of guys out there that have made the swap and there seems to be a bit of false info and confusion about the swap. It absolutely is NOT for everyone. but those that are contemplating shouldnt worry about driveability, check engine lights, or any lost functions besides cruise control at this time. We will be working on a fix for the cruise control in the next few weeks, and hopefully once thats taken care of it will fit the mold for even more folks. I wont lie, it does get old seeing "dont do this...ive SEEN, or ive HEARD, or ive BEEN AROUND" in techinical threads such as this. a lot of guys need to spend a little less time on the forum and a little more time with their hands on a truck before they offer some of the advice they do. itll make the info even more valuable on here with real world experience.

Im definately not a 5r hater. ive had great luck getting even stock ones to live at decent power levels, but at the same time ive dealt with enough of them to aknowledge their problems. once you drive a 6.0 or 6.4 w/ a 4r in it, youll have a hard time wanting anything else.

Once again, I HAVE been in a 6.4 with a swap. Have not been in a 6.0 swap. Yes, the way they load the engine and move trough the gears is nice. I HAVE NOT owned one or personally daily drove it. It just didn't appeal to me enough to make me want to commit. I have driven a lot of built 4rs.

Once again my experiences have been with multiple different trucks. Earlier I said it would be a blast in a regular cab play-toy truck. I just wouldn't want it it my main truck for all purposes. Not that they can't be used for all purposes.

I never said they don't work or don't work well. I am not a 4r hater, but I too get tired of hearing all the BS about 5rs. Saying they cannot be made reliable and there's no way that they compare to a bts. It's not true anymore.

What I am telling is not hearsay. Just because I do not own one does not mean that I do not have experience with them. The reason I do not own them are the same reasons I have stated earlier. For the few that want them, that is great. Once again in my case I didn't want it. And it is not necessary to have 4r just to dd a 6.4 with stock fuel. I posted here to clear the air of all the people thinking you have to swap a 4r to be reliable past stock 6.4 power. Just not true.

And the cruise working will inevitably be a major gain in the 4r swap popularity for every day drivers.

Powerstroked162 · Oct 9, 2013

Chris said:
Sledpull,

if you get a chance you really should drive a 6.0 or 6.4 w/ a 4r in it. The way the engine responds to the 4r makes a lot of difference. its the best part about doing the swap. the 4r swap isnt just great because it gives you a reliable transmission, its great in that it moves the truck so much better through out the entire powerband.

The reason i posted in this thread is the op asked about guys that have experience with a 4r in a truck originally equiped with a 5r. There still arent a lot of guys out there that have made the swap and there seems to be a bit of false info and confusion about the swap. It absolutely is NOT for everyone. but those that are contemplating shouldnt worry about driveability, check engine lights, or any lost functions besides cruise control at this time. We will be working on a fix for the cruise control in the next few weeks, and hopefully once thats taken care of it will fit the mold for even more folks. I wont lie, it does get old seeing "dont do this...ive SEEN, or ive HEARD, or ive BEEN AROUND" in techinical threads such as this. a lot of guys need to spend a little less time on the forum and a little more time with their hands on a truck before they offer some of the advice they do. itll make the info even more valuable on here with real world experience.

Im definately not a 5r hater. ive had great luck getting even stock ones to live at decent power levels, but at the same time ive dealt with enough of them to aknowledge their problems. once you drive a 6.0 or 6.4 w/ a 4r in it, youll have a hard time wanting anything else.

Interesting comment that I'd like to touch on. A 4r swap at this given moment in time(with a auto pcm cal) WILL leave you with CEL lights. So are you referring to a manual trans flash 4r equipped truck not having lights? I know Craig tried to flash his truck to a manual with no luck and last I heard nobody had successfully made that happen as of yet. If you were talking about a regular old auto cal PCM 4r swap... then the ONLY one in the country that I know of whose got no CEL lights and a functioning cruise control system belongs to extreme3807. To this day, nobody knows how it happened and how to duplicate it. Craig's truck has CEL lights from the 4r swap he did a couple years ago with the help of Brian, Eric, and Myself. No Cruise Control though. JHaddox has a 4r swap in his built 6.4, CEL on in the dash, no cruise control. I know of another truck back east that also has a 4r swap and CEL lights on in the dash, with no cruise control. It's always been the major down fall of the swap, and has yet to be remedied to the best of my knowledge.

A cruise control box would be great to have! I started on one a couple years ago but ended up bagging it. the drive wasn't there in the market to justify the cost and r&d. As far as I did get on it though was no easy task. Definitely one of the few projects to kick my ass. I utilized that old saying "quit while you're ahead" well with that one lol. If you get it up and going though Chris, I know it would help these swaps be more appealing to guys who won't give up their factory options for a 4r.

Also, I agree that experience is key in these discussions and it does make or break some peoples decisions. What i don't agree with is the brow beating of the experienced people posting in here because they don't fall in line with the 4r believers. 3 years ago Craig asked me to help him put a 4r in his drag truck. At that time there was nothing on the market that could handle 1100hp in a CC/SB going down the strip. he was eating 5r's like nobodies business. Every 3-5 passes IIRC. Swapped to the 4r and BAM, making consecutive passes for weekends in a row with no issues but keeping a convertor in it after 30 passes set on kill in a 7500+ truck. Now, fast forward and what do we have today? 5r's so stout that one of the heaviest and nastiest 6.4's in the country can't break it and it doesn't hunt, or flare, or miss shifts, hang shifts, nothing. Just works.( Yes I know what you are thinking, just 1 truck running right isn't enough to convince you. I was only using said truck as an example of the 5r of todays capabilities. There are many strong trucks running with built 5r's and no issues. I just don't feel like listing every single one of them for the sake of debate). 5r Tuning has come a loooooong way and the R&D done on parts combos inside of the trans is really showing its worth these last 2 years. Now, that doesn't mean everybody builds the same 5r. No different then BTS vs Jasper. Just as easy as a 4r gets a bad rap for being junk because it was built by an incompetent builder, the 5r does as well. Same for tuning on both. So I guess my point is, as it's been all along, why(knowing all that) swap in a 4r for a 750hp DD 6.4 when the 5r has been proven to handle that and more with reliability and every bit of functionality as the 4r does? There's no point anymore. Is it cheaper? Yeah, it's cheaper then some comp 5r transmissions but not all. With the advances in the 5r and tuning over the past two years, is it any more reliable in a 750hp truck or a 10 second crew cab? No, not at all. Do I love the 4r? Absolutely! But not enough to leave my trucks instrument cluster lit up 24/7, sacrificing factory amenities like cruise control and killing resale value tremendously among a common market crowd(resale may also go up among forum members with a 4r swap too but the crowd interested in such a setup would be minimal by comparison). Now, 3 years ago... my answer would have been totally different and you wouldn't have been able to convince me to stick a built 5r in my truck any sooner then being the center piece of a donkey show in Montreal. So take it for what its worth. it's obviously isn't for everybody and many of us posting here, know that. Nobody here is telling somebody they can't do what they wish with their money either. When somebody asks though they deserve to get all the facts before they embark on a endeavor of this caliber. In the same token, I don't think anybody should be brow beating somebody else for opposing the swap with facts gained through personal experiences. Even though personal accomplishment resumes weren't distributed prior to this thread being started, some of us do have a little experience with the subject

Sledpull said:
What I am telling is not hearsay. Just because I do not own one does not mean that I do not have experience with them. The reason I do not own them are the same reasons I have stated earlier. For the few that want them, that is great. Once again in my case I didn't want it. And it is not necessary to have 4r just to dd a 6.4 with stock fuel. I posted here to clear the air of all the people thinking you have to swap a 4r to be reliable past stock 6.4 power. Just not true

Very well said, Magic Morgan

.

Chris · Oct 9, 2013

Every swap we have done has not had a cel. We are running manual trans calibrations on both the 6.0s and 6.4s. Now obviously theres more to this that im not going to spill the beans about, but the light still works like it should. it is not disabled all together nor is the bulb taken out of the dash. If you unplug an injector, youll still get a circuit code for example.

The cruise control is an issue. it is something we are going to solve. it is the biggest delima of the swap in my opion. But how many single turbo non vgt 6.4s or 6.0s w/ big hp honestly will use cruise control anyways.

Do you think maybe some of the problem is most of the swaps that have been done have not had the capability of being tuned, wired, pcs tuned, and installed all in the same shop by the same group of guys? this isnt meant in a negative tone either. Its just one of the reaons i think we've had good luck with the swaps is it is most likely easier for us than other shops due to the convenience and how closely we work w/ Brian at BTS.

Strokin6.4 · Oct 9, 2013

Chris said:
The cruise control is an issue. it is something we are going to solve. it is the biggest delima of the swap in my opion. But how many single turbo non vgt 6.4s or 6.0s w/ big hp honestly will use cruise control anyways.

Kind of what I was thinking this entire thread. With my 472 cruise control would be a smokey hot disaster I'd imagine. Thats kind of the advantage of driving a big single is knowing whats ahead of you. Say if I'm about to hit a pretty good grade with 0 boost it wouldnt be pretty.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto · Oct 9, 2013

Chris said:
Every swap we have done has not had a cel. We are running manual trans calibrations on both the 6.0s and 6.4s. Now obviously theres more to this that im not going to spill the beans about, but the light still works like it should. it is not disabled all together nor is the bulb taken out of the dash. If you unplug an injector, youll still get a circuit code for example.

The cruise control is an issue. it is something we are going to solve. it is the biggest delima of the swap in my opion. But how many single turbo non vgt 6.4s or 6.0s w/ big hp honestly will use cruise control anyways.

Do you think maybe some of the problem is most of the swaps that have been done have not had the capability of being tuned, wired, pcs tuned, and installed all in the same shop by the same group of guys? this isnt meant in a negative tone either. Its just one of the reaons i think we've had good luck with the swaps is it is most likely easier for us than other shops due to the convenience and how closely we work w/ Brian at BTS.

Yeah, you can shut the cel off with tuning. But it still has codes in the PCM and cruise will be nearly impossible to ever make work utilizing an automatic PCM. I've really only seen one way to make the cruise work. But for most it would be too expensive.

Josh@DirtyDiesels · Oct 9, 2013

Strokin6.4 said:
Kind of what I was thinking this entire thread. With my 472 cruise control would be a smokey hot disaster I'd imagine. Thats kind of the advantage of driving a big single is knowing whats ahead of you. Say if I'm about to hit a pretty good grade with 0 boost it wouldnt be pretty.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

I agree on the cruise control not being an issue. I know personally with mine I RARELY use cruise control... Maybe others use it a lot but honestly who is taking long road trips in trucks that will even have a 4r... Cruise is not even a factor for me and wanting to do a 4r swap which I will most likely do this winter as long as I can afford it. No my truck isn't a dedicated race truck, make 1000hp, or am I dissatisfied with my 5r, BUT I prefer a built 4r, therefore I will use one.

Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto · Oct 9, 2013

dzlpwr said:
I agree on the cruise control not being an issue. I know personally with mine I RARELY use cruise control... Maybe others use it a lot but honestly who is taking long road trips in trucks that will even have a 4r....

See for the op who is not shooting for a huge power goal with stock fuel, cruise would be nice. Like you said, for most people considering a swap, cruise isn't a big deal. That's why I said the majority of owners don't need a 4r because they aren't at that power level and/or multitask with their truck for work and play. A 5r would be better for them.

Josh@DirtyDiesels · Oct 9, 2013

Sledpull said:
See for the op who is not shooting for a huge power goal with stock fuel, cruise would be nice. Like you said, for most people considering a swap, cruise isn't a big deal. That's why I said the majority of owners don't need a 4r because they aren't at that power level and/or multitask with their truck for work and play. A 5r would be better for them.

I do agree on that also. Personally. If I didn't have cruise now with my 5r I wouldn't even be upset... but to each his own. If I were in the OP's shoes I would stay with a 5r. No point to go 4r unless he is dead set and in love with how a 4r drives.

Rubenk · Oct 9, 2013

Thanks again for the civil discussion guys. And for the reassurance in sticking with a 5r(which I am doing)!

bigrpowr · Oct 10, 2013

i wouldnt be cool without cruise. i would build the module myself. i dont use cruise that much, but just knowing i didnt.. i would make it happen. just like sync

Dzchey21 · Oct 10, 2013

shoot my reg cab has cruise and i use it often (required for staying out of trouble lol)

3brorce · Oct 11, 2013

One of the best threads I have read right here.

Hotrodtractor · Oct 11, 2013

bigrpowr said:
i wouldnt be cool without cruise. i would build the module myself. i dont use cruise that much, but just knowing i didnt.. i would make it happen. just like sync

I'm with you. Its the same reason I am making the push button 4x4 work correctly in my Dmax even though it has a Ford tcase and a Ford front axle with vacuum hubs.

fordman2121 · Oct 30, 2013

Im going to bring this back up as I have a question.

Has anyone that has swapped to the 4r been able to make the gear indicator work? Obviously it wont go all the way down to 1. We are finalizing my brothers 08 fummins swap with the 4r and trying to make it as factory appearing inside as possible. Cruise will be controlled with a mechanical unit from a gasser so no issue there. My thoughts on it are to mount the range sensor to the outside of the 4r right beside the 4rs switch then just plug it back in.