Battery Relocation

[littleredstroker]

Ben a while since Ive been around here but Im back now!

On my 03 Ive decided to make a little more room in the engine bay for future compound plans. There are a few things I need guidance on, and am open to suggestions.

What i have planned is im going to make a battery box that bolts to the bed with a cover that comes on and off fairly easy ( think like whats on the side of a semi). I am going to have 2- 4D batteries mounted there. From there i am going to run cables through the bed, down the Drivers side frame rail and up to the location of existing battery.

First question. I am looking for a distribution block where I can connect 3 cables with this type of terminal.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00030CYD8...e=df0&creative=395129&creativeASIN=B00030CYD8

Would this

http://www.amazon.com/Fastronix-Red...650084&sr=1-9&keywords=battery+terminal+block

be sufficient to work as a union? just have the 3 cables all connected here?

I will have cable coming in from the bed, connected to the existing + and - on the drivers side , and then have a cable going across to the Existing passenger side + and -.

The links are just images of what I have in mind, I know sizes aren't correct.


The next question, What size cable do I need to use to keep my truck from catching fire?

and also what would be the best option as far as corrosion control?

any other thoughts, ideas, or input?

 

[littleredstroker]

nobody?

 

[shmoozer]

I've been waiting for someone to reply with some knowledge as well. Would like to do something similar


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[JSchuricht]

I have mine on the frame under the passenger door using boxes from an e-series van. The stock cable is 2/0, the longer distance means you need larger cable. To save yourself a bit of work, run the positive directly to the starter. From there you can either run a smaller cable from the batteries up to power the rest of the truck or try to use the existing one from the starter. You are also going to have to redo the grounds, the stock batteries have one large ground each that goes to the motor so you will have to relocate them to the frame.

 

[mikeeg02]

Look for tinned wire lugs. They are typically silver in color. They are more corrosion resistant. Always spray battery terminal sealer over your connections when done. I would not put the battery in the bed unless it was a race truck. The battery stud you've listed is an acceptable "union". 3/8 studs are typically how battery connections are combined.

Separating your batteries so far will require significantlyrics larger battery wire. When our huge starters try to draw power, while your glow plugs are drawing in excess of 80 amps, your voltage drop across the wire increases significantly. If you use the frame as a conductor, you must increase the size of the wire between the frame and engine block/starter. There should be a ground braid/strap, but you'll want a better conductor, the ground braid/strap will burn up.

If it was me, I'd keep it in the engine bay if possible. Helps withe battery accessibility and is better for corrosion. Don't most people relocate the second battery to where the stock air box was ? Since your air intake for the atmosphere charger will be on the passenger side at that point anyways.

 

[littleredstroker]

With how Ive had everything set in place, the turbo will be where the airbox is

Ive seen the tinned connectors, thats good to know.

the reason I am going to the bed for battery location is because i am going to be running 4Ds, there is just no way to fit 2 of them in the engine bay.

 

[mikeeg02]

How are you getting your down pipe back through ?:

4d batteries, depending on where you get them from can be spec'd as high in CCA as two of our Stock ones. Though usually around 1,000 CCA. By going to a 4d battery, you are almost doubling the reserve capacity though again depending on where you get them from not doubling CCA. Though if you are getting them from a manufacturer that is doubling CCA of our Stock batteries, why use two ? Do you need the extra reserve capacity?

When I have added remote batteries, I run the wire inside of liquidtight conduit tied to the frame rail. Hoping that in the chance of a collision, it's protected a little better.

 

[littleredstroker]

Basically, I am tired of buying batteries.. Even buying cheap walmart ones and using their warranty to swap out every 2 years or so, you are still chancing getting stranded somewhere. Where i live its not uncommon to have -40 to -50 degree weather, which means ice fishing:thumbup: and snowmobiling where often I am miles from ANYwhere with nobody in sight.

Ive found my 7.3 starts the best when the glow plugs are on for 3 minutes or so, (when its that cold) which with regular batteries it doesnt give you alot of time cranking. The 2 year old dekas (sp?) after having 2-3 minutes with glow plugs on , leaves about 20-30 seconds of cranking. (which is often enough) before the cranking starts to slow. We all know that these truck need fast cranking over a period of time to start. So if I am due for new batteries, its always incredibly frustrating to find out at that time..

Another thing, if you have a battery and are draining it to say 50% over and over and over , its going to shorten the life of the battery compared to if you drained it say 15% is it not?

When you look at the price of 1-4D being roughly the same price as a regular damn 12v for our trucks... even if I have to replace them half as often I will still be money ahead, not to mention KNOWING when I go to make the engine start after a long day on the ice that I wont have issues.

I know its overkill, but nothing succeeds like it.

 

[littleredstroker]

How are you getting your down pipe back through ?:

.

ill have to look at my scribbles to tell exactly, but the plan was to take it down the drivers side completely IIRC it would still be high enough to protect it.

 

[mikeeg02]

Well Ive not started mine in -40 - -50, but mine always started at -10 - -20 here in Central/Northern PA. Im not trying to derail your thread, but have you put in an upgraded GPR relay (not a ford or ford replacement, there are much better options, and usually for less money), and I can only assume you are running 5w-40 oil correct? And you have hopefully replaced the glowplugs and gone over the harness to verify everything has good connection? Assuming all that is true, and your does just start that hard, I do understand the desire for additional battery.

The business I work in is being on call for 911. When 911 is broken, I need to go, no ifs, ands, or buts. Truck not starting is not an excuse. So I can understand where you are coming from.

In my modifying everything over the years, I have started to think when I modify or change something from OEM, how hard is it to fix when your stranded, and how hard is it to source parts.

A$$uming standard batteries are easier to come by in the situation where you cannot start:
I would put two of the larger group 65 sized batteries up front, in your case on the passenger side behind the head light. Then I would consider mounting a 4D or another larger group 65 series in a box on the frame rail, (or in the bed if you absolutely have to, but this increases your required wire size for starting) and takes up bed space.

If you are 100% convinced you need two 4D batteries, then put one up front, and again if you can put the second on the frame rail in a box, if you cannot, in the bed, with two runs of 00 wire, (two + and two -). Because when the starter draws current, the last thing you want is voltage drop, because then current goes up, and its a vicious cycle that burns up the starter ultimately.


Almost more important than all of this, is having clean connections, and properly crimped wire lugs. To properly crimp those wire lugs you said about above, you should use a 6 sided crimper. The one I have at work is an electric over hydraulic 12 ton crimper. Find someone who has one, it does make a difference. Heat shrink, and weather seal everything.

Most people reading this thread are going to say yea yea, blah blah. But if you want reliability in absolute conditions over time, then you need to make reliable connections.

 

[mikeeg02]

This is the crimper I use when I put together DC wiring plants at tower sites. ~$3,000 not including dies.

I cannot stress enough not to use this for what you want to do, unless you are soldering also. In the long term its just not a great thing.

 

[littleredstroker]

Whatever I decide , every connection will be soldered and shrink tubed.

would you say that there shouldnt be any issues with alternator charging ?

as far as wiring size goes.. can you explain a little more? do you see a voltage drop with bigger size cable? I guess im not understanding the voltage drop you are talking about?

Im plum ignorant with electrical.

 

[mikeeg02]

The alternator will charge whatever you hook to it. Stock alternators are between 110-130 amps. Lets say you use 100 amp hours of capacity starting the truck. Your alternator should have that capacity charged in about one hour of drive time. Not idle, because their output is reduced. But running down the road at cruise rpm, you will be charging at ~100 amp rate. If you do in fact run the batteries down just enough to start, it will just take longer to fully charge your batteries at a ~100 amp rate. In short no, there's no problem with the alternator.

As far as wiring goes. If you ran a 30' piece of #10 house (~.001 ohms per foot)wire between your rear battery, and starter, and tried to use the starter under load (lets say trying to draw 300 amps), the voltage measured at the starter would be ~3.5 volts(assuming the battery is at 12.5), the starter would not turn over, and it would sound like you had a dead battery and if left long enough the wire would melt the jacket and be on fire. Because your wire cannot deliver the amperage the starter motor needs, the voltage drops at the other end. Basically the starter is just dissipating heat at this point. (This is assuming the rear battery is providing all the current, which you should because you're planning for the worst case)


Now with 30' of 00 wire, (~.000078 ohms per foot) and the starter trying to use 300 amps, the voltage measured at the starter would be 11.8 (assuming 12.5 at the battery) Double up the wire, and you are looking at 12.15 at the starter. Now you are getting almost all your voltage to the starter.

00 THHN wire with a jacket rated at 90*C (similar to most automotive wire) is only spec'd to deliver ~200 amps of current. Your starter will exceed that, which is why you will want to double that up. That and the less voltage drop = more power at the starter, for your coldest days of starting.

Sorry for the long post, I just don't want to see you disappointed in your setup in the long run. And while the wire size is somewhat overkill because they should share the load between the front and rear battery, I would still run two pieces of #00 wire for the + and two for the -. Connecting the two batteries together.

 

[TjMiller]

A 4/0 copper + and - wont work in this application? Could use frame rail for ground but its such a short run just do it in copper. Not sure about the 3/8 ends for the 4/0 though.
I used a splice connector at the end of the 4/0 then pigtailed 3 smaller guage wires to the batteries.
http://www.grote.com/family/tin-plated-buttsplice-connectors/?prodcat=battery-connectors

I have also used the flag ends then didnt have to size down. just depends on what is in stock.
http://www.grote.com/family/flag-connector-clamps/?prodcat=battery-connectors

 

[Jomax]

The alternator will charge whatever you hook to it. Stock alternators are between 110-130 amps. Lets say you use 100 amp hours of capacity starting the truck. Your alternator should have that capacity charged in about one hour of drive time. Not idle, because their output is reduced. But running down the road at cruise rpm, you will be charging at ~100 amp rate. If you do in fact run the batteries down just enough to start, it will just take longer to fully charge your batteries at a ~100 amp rate. In short no, there's no problem with the alternator.



As far as wiring goes. If you ran a 30' piece of #10 house (~.001 ohms per foot)wire between your rear battery, and starter, and tried to use the starter under load (lets say trying to draw 300 amps), the voltage measured at the starter would be ~3.5 volts(assuming the battery is at 12.5), the starter would not turn over, and it would sound like you had a dead battery and if left long enough the wire would melt the jacket and be on fire. Because your wire cannot deliver the amperage the starter motor needs, the voltage drops at the other end. Basically the starter is just dissipating heat at this point. (This is assuming the rear battery is providing all the current, which you should because you're planning for the worst case)





Now with 30' of 00 wire, (~.000078 ohms per foot) and the starter trying to use 300 amps, the voltage measured at the starter would be 11.8 (assuming 12.5 at the battery) Double up the wire, and you are looking at 12.15 at the starter. Now you are getting almost all your voltage to the starter.



00 THHN wire with a jacket rated at 90*C (similar to most automotive wire) is only spec'd to deliver ~200 amps of current. Your starter will exceed that, which is why you will want to double that up. That and the less voltage drop = more power at the starter, for your coldest days of starting.



Sorry for the long post, I just don't want to see you disappointed in your setup in the long run. And while the wire size is somewhat overkill because they should share the load between the front and rear battery, I would still run two pieces of #00 wire for the + and two for the -. Connecting the two batteries together.

Great post!!


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[mikeeg02]

A 4/0 copper + and - wont work in this application? Could use frame rail for ground but its such a short run just do it in copper. Not sure about the 3/8 ends for the 4/0 though.

While 4/0 sounds twice as big as 2/0. It's only rated for an additional 60 amps over 2/0. Please do not use the frame rail to bridge two batteries like this for starting capabilities. Doing so would require adding an additional heavy wire from the front battery to the frame, then an additional wire from the frame to the engine, so as to not draw current through only the ground strap. I'm not saying it won't work, but paralleling two large batteries for optimal life, they should really be wired from terminal to terminal. So you hopefully draw off them both equally.

4/0 is also harder to work with and lugs are more expensive.

 

[TjMiller]

While 4/0 sounds twice as big as 2/0. It's only rated for an additional 60 amps over 2/0. Please do not use the frame rail to bridge two batteries like this for starting capabilities. Doing so would require adding an additional heavy wire from the front battery to the frame, then an additional wire from the frame to the engine, so as to not draw current through only the ground strap. I'm not saying it won't work, but paralleling two large batteries for optimal life, they should really be wired from terminal to terminal. So you hopefully draw off them both equally.

4/0 is also harder to work with and lugs are more expensive.

Right, if it were mine I wouldnt use the frame rail only cause its so short. His original plan was to put both batteries in same location so he would have to use a 4/0 ground jumper from batteries to frame then again in front to the motor.
I didnt actually look up the amperage ratings I was just reproducing the setup that Ford uses on the medium duty trucks with 3 batteries, seems to work. Do the light duty trucks draw more power?

I got curious and found this site that gives ampacity ratings for copper. It shows seperate ratings for power transmission and ChassiS wiring.
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

 

[TjMiller]

How do you figure resistance for parallel wiring?

 

[bluedge8]

How do you figure resistance for parallel wiring?

You figure out what the ampacity is for both wires added together and then figure out your voltage drop as if it were one wire.

Another way to look at voltage drop is simply the amount of resistance that is caused by the wire itself, you lose efficiency Through the Wire and it has to be taken into account.

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[mikeeg02]

The biggest difference is the wire length. The longer your wire, the bigger it's going to have to be when you're drawing a lot of power, like a 7.3l does when starting in absolute cold. My choice in what he should do is my opinion based on my experience in DC wiring and math, and what his desire is and complaints are in starting in absolute cold. Could you get away with smaller wire, probably. But his wish is for optimal battery life, and optimal starting when it's so cold outside that he needs to run his glow plugs for 3 minutes, (which use in excess of 80 amps if the glow plug relay is good) and then crank his motor while the glow plugs are also running, with two significantly larger batteries. That are significantly distanced apart. Keeping in mind that he also wants his batteries to live for several years. To do so optimally you would draw from them as equally as possible.

When paralleling wire, voltage drop is half. Because each wire sees half the current.