How To Tame Larger Injs and Nozzles?

Curtis@Vision Diesel · Sep 2, 2012

Tim @ P.I.S. said:
Does Vision Diesel build injectors?

We don't. And I never said we do. But I'm done here. Not going to stay in a pissing match with another vendor.

Gearhead · Sep 2, 2012

Tim if you are finding issues with injectors not working beause of quality control please PM me whose I need to watch out for when I tune a truck. Other than that, unless a builder is doing dumb stuff and not quality work, I have not heard of the issues you speak of on a flowbench or on a truck.

DZL JIM · Sep 3, 2012

Tim @ P.I.S. said:
...I personally see no sense in building an injector that does not operate to its full capability.....

Becasue not everyone is willing to pay for the extra work....

Bartlett99 · Sep 3, 2012

Tim @ P.I.S. said:
Results will have to be posted by customers. I do not have hard copies of this info. BDP Tuner may have some info to share. He has tuned, sold, installed and used PIS injectors.

I'm not going to mention names or provide flow sheets but i had a set of 350/200 from a very reputable builder that never performed properly from day one! The truck idled decent but was ruff and almost seemed to have a miss when cruissing down the road. Tim went to extensive lenghths to make these injectors operate correctly and actually ended up changing out 7 of the injector bodies to get them to flow rite, after getting them lined out he swapped on 400% nozzels and we ended up with a 50% increse in fuel!

My truck idles like stock and is as smooth as a stock injector but it'll turn 5k out of the hole, it runs the best and pulls harder than it ever has and thats with out any tunning changes!

I would not hesitate to put tim's injectors up against any other builder out there! He has went to extensive length to make sure his injectors are the best they can be!

I'm not trying to start a pissing match i just want to share my experince working with tim and his injectors!

Tim @ P.I.S. · Sep 3, 2012

DZL JIM said:
Becasue not everyone is willing to pay for the extra work....

Well then this is where my problem lies then. And I will accept it. As I for one refuse to reuse a nozzle from a set of cores that has who knows how many miles on it when it comes in. Does this lose me a lot of business, sure does. Is my product the least expensive on the market, not by a long shot. Do I feel better knowing I have sent out a better product because of this, YES sir I do.

Tim @ P.I.S. · Sep 3, 2012

Bartlett99 said:
I'm not going to mention names or provide flow sheets but i had a set of 350/200 from a very reputable builder that never performed properly from day one! The truck idled decent but was ruff and almost seemed to have a miss when cruissing down the road. Tim went to extensive lenghths to make these injectors operate correctly and actually ended up changing out 7 of the injector bodies to get them to flow rite, after getting them lined out he swapped on 400% nozzels and we ended up with a 50% increse in fuel!

My truck idles like stock and is as smooth as a stock injector but it'll turn 5k out of the hole, it runs the best and pulls harder than it ever has and thats with out any tunning changes!

I would not hesitate to put tim's injectors up against any other builder out there! He has went to extensive length to make sure his injectors are the best they can be!

I'm not trying to start a pissing match i just want to share my experince working with tim and his injectors!

Thank you John.
I'm glad they are working out for you. I am sure with speaking with Jonathan more about your set up that some live tuning will do wonders for you.

KBMKVIII · Sep 3, 2012

so with all the 400% nozzle issues who has had experience with the 300%?

matt the chip wil be overnighted to you on wedensday.

getting a full tint job tuesday.

i remember goodstktrbo having the 300% nozzles on his injectors a while back.

so the 400% vs 200% really nets you 50% more fuel at the same pulse width? thats awesome.

what rpm will the 200% vs 300% vs 400% nozzles let you run efficently?

also thanks to all for the in depth explinations.

im still just trying to learn.

KBMKVIII · Sep 3, 2012

as far as oil and fuel mods if i understand this correctly,
a standard h2e may be all one owner needs but the next guy/gal may need the modded h2e for example all depending on goals.
is this right?

DZL JIM · Sep 4, 2012

Tim @ P.I.S. said:
Well then this is where my problem lies then. And I will accept it. As I for one refuse to reuse a nozzle from a set of cores that has who knows how many miles on it when it comes in. Does this lose me a lot of business, sure does. Is my product the least expensive on the market, not by a long shot. Do I feel better knowing I have sent out a better product because of this, YES sir I do.

So if a customer wants, say, 250 cc Hybrids and insists on a 200% nozzle, that you will only do the injectors if they have all the fuel side mods done, and charge a premium to do so (it's not cheap doing all of the required work)? Even if you fully explain to the customer the minimal benefits for a daily driven truck to justify the added expense to gain .5 ms in empty time?

Tim @ P.I.S. · Sep 4, 2012

DZL JIM said:
So if a customer wants, say, 250 cc Hybrids and insists on a 200% nozzle, that you will only do the injectors if they have all the fuel side mods done, and charge a premium to do so (it's not cheap doing all of the required work)? Even if you fully explain to the customer the minimal benefits for a daily driven truck to justify the added expense to gain .5 ms in empty time?

Absolutely, why would anyone offer an injector with a 200% nozzle knowing well enough that it will perform poorly. And you can not say that watching on the flow bench you don't see a difference. Putting a nozzle that is too big for what the injector is capable of supporting properly is a poorly performing injector.

Gearhead · Sep 4, 2012

Tim @ P.I.S. said:
Absolutely, why would anyone offer an injector with a 200% nozzle knowing well enough that it will perform poorly. And you can not say that watching on the flow bench you don't see a difference. Putting a nozzle that is too big for what the injector is capable of supporting properly is a poorly performing injector.

Tim, we have to be talking about 2 different set of mods..... if you are referring to the basic rebuld things like poppet opening/clearance that every reputable builder should be doing vs doing extra machining to remove internal restrictions we are talking about two different things. If it is the former then shame on that builder for not building a good set of injectors. If it is the later, you can't warrant doing these mods for a 5% increase in flow/vs time for someone who always goes with the lowest price and you can't spend the extra money. Do the 200% work decent without mods.... Yes! Do the mods help make more power..... Yes!

Tim @ P.I.S. · Sep 4, 2012

Gearhead said:
Tim, we have to be talking about 2 different set of mods..... if you are referring to the basic rebuld things like poppet opening/clearance that every reputable builder should be doing vs doing extra machining to remove internal restrictions we are talking about two different things. If it is the former then shame on that builder for not building a good set of injectors. If it is the later, you can't warrant doing these mods for a 5% increase in flow/vs time for someone who always goes with the lowest price and you can't spend the extra money. Do the 200% work decent without mods.... Yes! Do the mods help make more power..... Yes!

No we are not speaking of basics to bring back into specs. That is whole other story right there. This quote right here gets me, "Do the 200% work decent without mods.... Yes!"

I can see this could go on forever. It must just be one of those things you have to see to believe. I have seen it, so I guess I am the only one to believe.

Matt you will see one day. It is the same thing I explained to my tuner. You will have to learn to tune for fuel that you can now have and not tune for fuel you thought was there. We are crossing that bridge right now.

Now don't get me wrong on this, not ALL injectors lack what they claim they are advertised to do. I am not saying that. But you would be amazed at how many were.

Gearhead · Sep 4, 2012

Tim why don't you throw out some flow bench numbers on how many cc you have at 3ms and 2500 icp. Also tell us what the minimum pulsewidth is for reliable fuel delivery at 2500 psi so we can calculate the actual fuel per time your injectors deliver.

DZL JIM · Sep 4, 2012

Tim @ P.I.S. said:
Absolutely, why would anyone offer an injector with a 200% nozzle knowing well enough that it will perform poorly. And you can not say that watching on the flow bench you don't see a difference. Putting a nozzle that is too big for what the injector is capable of supporting properly is a poorly performing injector.

I agree with Matt, I think we're running in 2 different directions here.
Adding 200% nozzles to a normal Hybrid WILL empty them faster, I do not call that a poor running injector.
They will not empty as fast as they could, but it is a gain for sure.
Paying for the extra fast fuel mods will take them the rest of the way.

Bean · Sep 6, 2012

I wont argue that a 200% nozzle will not make more power, we have showed it on the dyno bunches of times. The problem lies with what rpm it makes the power at and how far it carries it.

If you make a 250/200 injector how many rpms will that truck rev too and where does it peak power?

How does someone go from 3400rpm limit to over 5000rpms with 0 tuning changes?

Dieselboy. · Sep 9, 2012

Bean said:
I wont argue that a 200% nozzle will not make more power, we have showed it on the dyno bunches of times. The problem lies with what rpm it makes the power at and how far it carries it.

If you make a 250/200 injector how many rpms will that truck rev too and where does it peak power?

How does someone go from 3400rpm limit to over 5000rpms with 0 tuning changes?

Secret squirrell
Pixie Dust
Pure ***kn Magic

?

imp:

Tim @ P.I.S. · Sep 9, 2012

Dieselboy. said:
Secret squirrell
Pixie Dust
Pure ***kn Magic

?imp:

Mind if I borrow this for my new line of comp series injectors? I really like the sound of that.

Tim @ P.I.S. · Sep 11, 2012

Bean said:
I wont argue that a 200% nozzle will not make more power, we have showed it on the dyno bunches of times. The problem lies with what rpm it makes the power at and how far it carries it.

I would LOVE to see some graphs showing this. I agree 100%. For some reason all the graphs i bookmarked disappeared.