Peixinho's 700hp streetable, towable, DD build thread

william_ace

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^^^

Do you think 285's (Or whatever combo you go with) would have enough fuel to spin a turbo off of one bank?
 

peixinho

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^^^

Do you think 285's (Or whatever combo you go with) would have enough fuel to spin a turbo off of one bank?

Two smaller vgt turbos yes... I don't think it is going to make huge power... but it would spool up super quick. It would be fun to try
 

strokin6L

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So you're going to aim for 700hp on an injector size of 225-285 (TBD) with likely a dual HPOP setup at that point, and a single VGT charger? Have you given a thought to which charger you're going to run? I know 6.0 VGT chargers have come a long way in the last year or so, but I think that's a tall task. I think it would be awesome to see it done though.

Honestly... I don't see it being a tall task at all. If a set of 190/100's and a stage 3(68mm) can lay down 650 or more....I see absolutely no reason why a stage 4 with an injector 225-285 won't make 700+. I know most will argue this, but Adrian already made over 700 with his stage 4 and 225/75's
 

peixinho

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^^^^ agreed. It does not seem very far off at all.

Adrian made 769hp with 225/75 mtw stage 4
Oliver made 615hp with 175/75 barder stage 3
Tuscany (not member here) made 600+ with 175/75 kc stage 3
Peixinho (me) made 590hp with 175/75 kc stage 3

700 is not very far off at all. I am very confident I can make the 700hp mark. I am just not sure how well it will tow. That is my only worry
 
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Mdub707

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I knew guys were doing some crazy things with the newer VGT's, haven't been that up to date on it, thanks for the info! I guess my only question at that point is reliability... how long are these big VGT's going to last. I don't know that anyone can answer that just yet, but we shall see. Cool build either way, I will be watching this one closely.
 

peixinho

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I knew guys were doing some crazy things with the newer VGT's, haven't been that up to date on it, thanks for the info! I guess my only question at that point is reliability... how long are these big VGT's going to last. I don't know that anyone can answer that just yet, but we shall see. Cool build either way, I will be watching this one closely.


Ya... I guess only time will tell. I don't see them being any less reliable than a stock vgt turbo... as long as they are built right (i don't want to get into pissing matches over building turbos). Looking at the inside of vgt turbos vs non-vgt turbos they tend to use the same shafts, bearings, wheels, comp housings, etc... they only differ in the actually vgt area


The only problem I see is that you will not be able to 100% avoid the typical issues with vgt turbos. We have all seen that if the vgt turbo is take care of, not babied, egr deleted, ccv deleted, etc... then they last well over 200,000 miles with no problems. But if let sit, rust, egr clogging issues, ccv oil issues, installing boost foolers, not balanced, vgt never cycled, etc... then they tend to have many more problems.



Like you said some of the newer vgt turbos have only been out for a few years so only time will tell
 

strokin6L

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There's a few with over 40k miles so far and hasn't missed a beat. I know the stage 3 and 4 from MTW have a larger shaft. I see no reason why a large vgt won't last a really long time.
 

TyCorr

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Why dont more of you 6L guys use bigger nozzles? And consequently less pw and timing.

If pw being too long is a concern for reliability(heat and cp) why not go to faster nozzles?
 

peixinho

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Why dont more of you 6L guys use bigger nozzles? And consequently less pw and timing.

If pw being too long is a concern for reliability(heat and cp) why not go to faster nozzles?


This is a very good point and something that I have been thinking about a lot. I personally feel that the smallest nozzle possible with the highest amount of ICP will produce the lowest temps and highest power. No reasons to stick 150s on a 155 injectors... 155/150 would be stupid... why... because you don't need that big of a nozzle to dump that much fuel. I think it is important to create a good ratio of nozzle to fuel dumping goal.



For example:

75% nozzles at 2.4ms dump 240cc of fuel. Now these are just simple examples and do not take into account ICP... but lets just leave that at a constant for easy figuring.


how much fuel do you dump if you have 175/75 and run 2.4ms??? You still only get 175cc of fuel. What about at 1.75ms??? theoretically with 75% nozzles you will dump 100cc per ms. So at 1.75ms will dump the same amount of fuel as 2.4ms. That makes it more difficult to tune and pull fuel to provide a good tow tune. Because the max tune dumps the same amount of fuel as a tune that has slightly pulled a little bit of fuel.


how much fuel do you dump if you have 175/30 and run 2.4ms??? Theoretically 30% nozzles will dump 75cc per ms. With 2.4 ms you still only get 175cc of fuel. but at 1.75ms you will only dump 130cc of fuel. This makes it easier to control how much fuel is being dumped. Therefore making it easier to tow with.





So it just comes down to picking the max ms of pulse width desired. Calculating backwards, and then picking your nozzle size. (once again assuming max ICP)





So adding bigger nozzles does not make "more" power... it just gives you the ability to dump fuel faster. Smaller nozzles make it easier to tow with and get better atomization. This is something that I would like to be able to take advantage of. Let me pose the question to you... why use such large nozzles? :shrug:
 
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strokin6L

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Just wanna say I was wrong about the shaft. I asked Adrian and he said its the same as stocker. Thanks for the pm Charlie!
 

TyCorr

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This is a very good point and something that I have been thinking about a lot. I personally feel that the smallest nozzle possible with the highest amount of ICP will produce the lowest temps and highest power. No reasons to stick 150s on a 155 injectors... 155/150 would be stupid... why... because you don't need that big of a nozzle to dump that much fuel. I think it is important to create a good ratio of nozzle to fuel dumping goal.



For example:

75% nozzles at 2.4ms dump 240cc of fuel. Now these are just simple examples and do not take into account ICP... but lets just leave that at a constant for easy figuring.


how much fuel do you dump if you have 175/75 and run 2.4ms??? You still only get 175cc of fuel. What about at 1.75ms??? theoretically with 75% nozzles you will dump 100cc per ms. So at 1.75ms will dump the same amount of fuel as 2.4ms. That makes it more difficult to tune and pull fuel to provide a good tow tune. Because the max tune dumps the same amount of fuel as a tune that has slightly pulled a little bit of fuel.


how much fuel do you dump if you have 175/30 and run 2.4ms??? Theoretically 30% nozzles will dump 75cc per ms. With 2.4 ms you still only get 175cc of fuel. but at 1.75ms you will only dump 130cc of fuel. This makes it easier to control how much fuel is being dumped. Therefore making it easier to tow with.





So it just comes down to picking the max ms of pulse width desired. Calculating backwards, and then picking your nozzle size. (once again assuming max ICP)





So adding bigger nozzles does not make "more" power... it just gives you the ability to dump fuel faster. Smaller nozzles make it easier to tow with and get better atomization. This is something that I would like to be able to take advantage of. Let me pose the question to you... why use such large nozzles? :shrug:

I thought the injector "size" was a rating of how much it flowed in 1000 shots? So how is ine injector spraying that much fuel in 3ms? In one cylinder?
 

TyCorr

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Oh, and why not? A larger nozzle will give you more options for tuning. It will also allow you to dump WHATEVER amount of fuel you want to use, with no regard for power, faster. That makes the truck run cooler because a side effect of quick injection would be clean power with lower egts. Do the samebwork.with less heat. Heat is just power you tried to make outside your efficiency range.

This isnt a poke at anyone, any platform, or any other specific but why all these "tunes"? I'D like to run a huge injector, one tune, and have that dynamic range of power. Towing? No sweat, anything under half throttle will be 400hp or less. Wanna open up the road? Cool , wot, there's 650hp.
 
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peixinho

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Just a quick ? Would the 68mm turbo drop egts compared to a stock powermax?


I don't believe in absolute but I will answer this as best I can.


There are a lot of variables that go into this question. Let take any given truck with a descent sized injector and keep everything else the same...

At idle egts will be the same... (duh lol)
Around town with easy driving egts will probably be a little higher
At WOT your egts will be much lower.


Basically with a larger turbo you are changing how and when the turbo is most efficient. The stock powermax is smaller so it will usually be more efficient at less than 1700 rpms. The bigger 68mm will be out of its efficiency range. Between 1700-2000 rpms it is a toss up. They are both probably about equal. Above 2000 rpms the 68mm is going to flow much more air and cool off the egts.




When I had my 175/stock and a stage 1 turbo my egts would get up to almost 1800 at WOT from 0-100.

With my 175/stock and KC 68mm stage 3 turbo my egts would only get up to about 1350... it was a huge difference.

My cruising egts went from about 700-750 to 750-800 with 175/stock



Hope that helps
 

peixinho

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I thought the injector "size" was a rating of how much it flowed in 1000 shots? So how is ine injector spraying that much fuel in 3ms? In one cylinder?


This is a rating of the max potential of the injector. It is the max fuel that the injector can hold given 1000 shots... Max ICP, Correct Nozzle size, and fuel pressure allowing. But it is not just a given.

PS... 3ms of PW would more than likely blow your truck up.


Think of an injector as a giant needle syringe from the doctor.


The first number (155cc, 175cc, 190cc etc...) that is how much fuel the injector can hold. Kind of like how many cc's fluid you can hold in the syringe from the doctor. (in 1000 full complete shots)

The second number (30, 75, 100, etc...) that is how big the nozzle size is over stock. Basically it is how much faster the fuel can be dumped over stock. Think of this as the needle gauge (size of hole in the needle). The bigger the gauge the more fluid you can dump in the same amount of time.

HPO, ICP, ETC... this is how much oil pressure you have behind the injector. This could be symbolized by how hard you press the syringe with your finger... or hard hard you bang it with a giant hammer The harder you hit it then the better your injection pressure and faster you dump fuel.


PW, Pulse width, 2.4ms, etc... this is how long the injector pulses for, or how long it has to dump fuel. This is kind of like how long your finger can push on the back of the syringe. The longer you push the more fuel comes out.





So why not just upgrade the size of the injector body without upgrading the nozzle size... well at high rpms the motor will be spinning so fast that there will not be enough time to dump all the fluid. That is why you upgrade your nozzle size. So you can dump more fuel in the same amount of time.

Why can't you just open up the pulse width long enough to dump all the fuel... well there is only so much time to play with. You don't want to advance the timing too much.

So why not just put the largest nozzle possible? Is there a problem with dumping too much fuel? Well the pulse width can only be adjusted so much. You can't just turn off the fuel. With too big of nozzles you will be dumping way too much fuel when cruising and towing. This will cause much higher egts




With all that said. You could essentially get a 190cc injector with a 50% nozzle. At full pulse width you will be able to dump all of the 190cc of fuel. But if you back off the pulse width through tuning you can dump slightly less fuel. Like 175cc or 155cc


On the other hand if you put a 150% nozzle on a 190cc injector (190/150) then at full pulse width you will still only dump 190cc of fuel. You cannot just turn down the pusle width because we don't have access to the tables. You have to adjust other parameters to try and manipulate the pulse width. Basically you will not get 190/150 to turn down enough to run very well. They will be hot and smokey and less efficient. you cannot get a 190/150 to run like a stock injector and still have power and driveablity up top. With larger nozzles you will be dumping fuel more like pouring a bucket on a fire. This results in a slower less controlled, less efficient burn. What you want is to atomize the fuel. (most pressure possible through the smallest nozzle) That would be like using a mister to equally spread out the fuel over the fire. The burn would be quicker, more controlled, and equally spread out. Thus resulting in more power. This is why many people with 300/150 injectors have a hard time with egts and hazing when driving around. There is just no way to turn down the fuel enough to run right and still have descent power up top.





Hope that helps put us on the same page.
 

peixinho

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Oh, and why not? A larger nozzle will give you more options for tuning. It will also allow you to dump WHATEVER amount of fuel you want to use, with no regard for power, faster. That makes the truck run cooler because a side effect of quick injection would be clean power with lower egts. Do the samebwork.with less heat. Heat is just power you tried to make outside your efficiency range.

This isnt a poke at anyone, any platform, or any other specific but why all these "tunes"? I'D like to run a huge injector, one tune, and have that dynamic range of power. Towing? No sweat, anything under half throttle will be 400hp or less. Wanna open up the road? Cool , wot, there's 650hp.





^^^^ I should have double quoted... see my first my previous post.



Basically this is not true. (although it would be nice if it was true... then there would only be 1 nozzle size... there would be no need for 30, 50, 75, 100, 150 etc...)
 

TyCorr

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I know what all the terms mean. Thanks.

You explained a bunch of things but not what I asked. Is your math about the injector right? Because even if you could solely manipulate the pw of an injection event(i wasnt aware that you couldnt tune a 6L that way) how could 3ms, or even 4 with any size nozzle flow as much as the injectors capacity does in 1000 shots?
 

peixinho

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I know what all the terms mean. Thanks.

You explained a bunch of things but not what I asked. Is your math about the injector right? Because even if you could solely manipulate the pw of an injection event(i wasnt aware that you couldnt tune a 6L that way) how could 3ms, or even 4 with any size nozzle flow as much as the injectors capacity does in 1000 shots?


This is not to come off sounding like a douche, or jerk. But you are asking a question that can only be understood and explained if you understood the info I posted above.

If it does not make sense yet then I would read it over again. I am not being negative or sarcastic. Or putting you down. But the only way to answer your question is for you to understand the terminology above
 

TyCorr

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Thats what Im asking, are you sure its right?

You're telling me each injector is flowing the rated capacity of the injector in an injection event of anywhere from 2.4-xxwhatever pulsewidth? I do have a beyind basic understanding but unless a 6L is a totally different world, it seems incorrect.

You dont have to apologize, if Im wrong I hope to learn how or why. Do you know how big 190cc of liquid is physically? You arent injecting that much fuel. A shotglass holds 20ish, off the top my head.

Dude, this is your build thread, I didnt mean to derail it, sorry! Carry on :D
 
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peixinho

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You explained a bunch of things but not what I asked. Is your math about the injector right? Because even if you could solely manipulate the pw of an injection event(i wasnt aware that you couldnt tune a 6L that way) how could 3ms, or even 4 with any size nozzle flow as much as the injectors capacity does in 1000 shots?


I know you are just using it as an example but you cannot run 3ms or even 4ms... your timing would be so far advanced that it would blow your motor. Most people tune to the max of 2.4ms , maybe 2.6ms, I have even seen 2.8ms. But 3ms would cause major cylinder pressures and possible blow the motor.


I do know that 240cc of fuel with 75% nozzles is correct. That has been tested with a flow bench. That is for sure. Another way to think about it would be like this.


240cc - 135cc = 105cc (so it is 105cc bigger than stock)

105cc/135cc = 77% (so a 240cc injector is 77% bigger than stock)


That is why 75% (77%) nozzles will flow 240cc of fuel at 2.4ms and 4000ICP


I thought the injector "size" was a rating of how much it flowed in 1000 shots? So how is ine injector spraying that much fuel in 3ms? In one cylinder?


That is just a rating. It is just to help with measurements. You do not shoot 1000 shots in one cylinder per revolution. You also do not fire 175cc or 190cc in one revolution. You fire that much fuel in 1000 revolutions.

So you only inject 175/1000 in one injection cycle assuming 2.4ms and 4000icp.


Whether you run 175/30, 175/75, 175/100, 175/150 you will only fire 175/1000 in one cylinder revolution at 2.4ms and 4000icp


The problem lies in the fact that with 175/150 you will continue to dump the full 175/1000 per revolution even at a lower pulse width. You are actually limiting the potential of the injector by putting too big of a nozzle on the injector.
 

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