Pushrod Debate from Beans71086's Thread
- Thread starter madman1234509
- Start date
I hear both sides on this topic. I consider myself non bias on most of discussions that happen on these forums because I am the guy that is perfectly content with the delete, intake, straight pipe and tune. I am not a "fan boy" or have any sort of alliance with any shop or distributor. I would like everyone to check my facts/logic/recollection of what I am about to say as I am by no means trying to pretend to be an expert.
I think the main issue is the good ole "while you are there" reasoning. As many of us know this way of thought can add up really quick. Three 400 dollar while you are there's add up to 1200 which is a good sum of money to a guy like me. I agree with some of the items, not this one in particular, that mad man brought up on some of these mods really don't have any hard evidence for back up. Also opinions seem to have changed in the last 4 years and I know some of that has to do with progression but I think some of it was just hype. The one that comes to mind is a wastegate. A few years back this was one of those things that you did "while you were there" when you were doing studs on a basic truck (stock turbo's stock fuel). Now guys are saying that they really aren't needed on stock turbo's but if two years ago I spend a lot of time on R&D for a wastegate I am going to want to sell some kits to get my money back. As stated before please let me know if I am not correct on that one. I will also agree with mad man on if you upgrade the push rods what is the next weak link (I would assume rockers?) and if that breaks what sort of potential damage happens then. I think the following are some of the items that people say "while you are there" are they really necessary and what sort of gains do they really get? Before I start I know that it is hard to do just one mod at a time to do a before and after comparison.
1. Head work. does port and polishing, bigger valves, better springs, pushrods etc get a noticeable difference? Conventional thought says yes it has to. I think we can all agree that none of these items are cheap and I know some of them really might not fall into the "while you are there" category. My issue is do these motors really respond to these mods? On a small block Chevy they respond like a mofo but on the old modular Ford motor motors they just don't justify the money at all. This is where I will disagree with mad man and say that I think the couple of hundred bucks for the pushrods is a good idea based on what I read about the deflection. I think that is a good "while you are there".
2. Exhaust manifolds. Anyone that looks at the 6.4 exhaust manifolds will say that there is room for improvement. My question is has anyone done a true before and after with the 6.0 manifolds? Is there the potential that Ford/International knew what they were doing with the 6.4 manifolds and they are actually not as bad as we all think? They might flow less but could that be better for whatever reason for this motor? For the record I think the 6.0's are a great option but I want to know what sort of upgrade I am getting. There was a bunch of hype on the Steed Speed manifolds and that isn't turning out so good as of now........ is there the chance that the 6.0's aren't that good either for this motor?
3. Intake manifold. Guys were saying it will add hp for sure. Then I think no one came up with real numbers. Then everyone said well even if it doesn't add hp you are still getting air flow to the two back cylinders that aren't getting air with the stock manifold so you aren't going to burn up those pistons. There has been much debate.
4. LPFP. First off let me say I think this is a good idea for the better/easier to get to filters and all around is a good idea. When guys first started doing these I believe they said they will give you more rail pressure and allow you to run bigger nozzles and ported fuel rails and you will make more power. I think recently someone said they got no more hp or rail pressure BUT the pressure didn't dip BUT they still didn't get any more hp so the fuel pressure dip wasn't hurting performance right? Now guys are saying that if you upgrade the LPFP it will help the life of the HPFP. Ok....... have we reached the point where we are trying to justify our purchase? Once again I want to reiterate that I am not calling anyone out or trying to be a smart ass, I am just asking the question.
5. Wastegates/BOV. Some guys say to do them some guys say don't.
6. The cold air side pipe coming out of the intercooler/heat exchanger. A bunch of people have products and I will agree that the factory Ford design is pretty sorry but I think the general consensus is that no one can feel a difference and the EGT's aren't very different. Is the factory design hurting us that much?
7. Intercooler. I have not heard about these in quite sometime which leads me to believe they are not worth the money. I don't think there has been that many stock failures and when guys do change them out I am not sure if they ever felt the gain was worth the money.
8. Batmo's. I know there was a big long thread about this and I might get the facts incorrect on this one. Which one works? The LP the HP or both? What kind of gains does it really get OR is like the batmo's on a Dmax where there is really little gain but EGT's go down? I think everyone has decided that the HP is good but don't do the LP since there is not much to gain.
These are all the items that I can think of at the moment that have been the "while you are there" when you got your cab lifted up in the air. I know some of these items can be done with the cab on, some of them have to, but it also goes back to the other phrase of "do it all at once and do it right the first time". The question to both of these phrases is what is really necessary and what do I have to gain so I can make an educated decision on what I am going to do "while I am there".
IMO there is a huge problem in the aftermarket world with hype and actual performance. Personally I don't care if your Pipe/heads/valves/HPFP/LPFP/manifolds/nozzles/whatever will flow X amount of CFM more than stock or pump X amount GPM more than stock. I don't think it is too much to ask what sort of HP gains or added reliability will I see from said mod before I shell out my hard earned cash on a product. I know this is not necessarily an easy thing to do. If I was to make a performance product specifically for the 6.4 I would test that product and only that product on a before and after dyno run on the same truck. I don't think this is asking for too much. If you are already spending so much on R&D on the product what does this test cost? Some might say what sort of truck do you do the test on. My response would be do it on the truck that is most common. Other than a handful of guys doing radical builds most of us have the mods that you can do without lifting the cab. Delete , tune, CAI, Straight pipe, DP and the cold side pipe.
Sorry for being long winded. I have made my list several times of things that I am going to do "while I am there" if heaven forbid my HG decide to start leaking. That list has changed several times. I think this has to do with what mad man is fighting right now which is does it really need to be changed? Is stock good enough? Is this product over hyped? What sort of gains will I see? Has anyone confirmed the claimed gains? Is the money worth the claimed gains? IMO there are several products that can't answer those questions and if they can then they are highly debated. Once again I want to say one last time that I am not calling anyone out, I am just asking the questions that are on my mind. If I buy product X what sort of HP can I expect so I can make the educated decision if the gain is worth the money. If I buy product X for reliability explain to me why it is an improvement so I can make the educated decision if it is worth the money to potentially save a 10k motor.
I think the main issue is the good ole "while you are there" reasoning. As many of us know this way of thought can add up really quick. Three 400 dollar while you are there's add up to 1200 which is a good sum of money to a guy like me. I agree with some of the items, not this one in particular, that mad man brought up on some of these mods really don't have any hard evidence for back up. Also opinions seem to have changed in the last 4 years and I know some of that has to do with progression but I think some of it was just hype. The one that comes to mind is a wastegate. A few years back this was one of those things that you did "while you were there" when you were doing studs on a basic truck (stock turbo's stock fuel). Now guys are saying that they really aren't needed on stock turbo's but if two years ago I spend a lot of time on R&D for a wastegate I am going to want to sell some kits to get my money back. As stated before please let me know if I am not correct on that one. I will also agree with mad man on if you upgrade the push rods what is the next weak link (I would assume rockers?) and if that breaks what sort of potential damage happens then. I think the following are some of the items that people say "while you are there" are they really necessary and what sort of gains do they really get? Before I start I know that it is hard to do just one mod at a time to do a before and after comparison.
1. Head work. does port and polishing, bigger valves, better springs, pushrods etc get a noticeable difference? Conventional thought says yes it has to. I think we can all agree that none of these items are cheap and I know some of them really might not fall into the "while you are there" category. My issue is do these motors really respond to these mods? On a small block Chevy they respond like a mofo but on the old modular Ford motor motors they just don't justify the money at all. This is where I will disagree with mad man and say that I think the couple of hundred bucks for the pushrods is a good idea based on what I read about the deflection. I think that is a good "while you are there".
2. Exhaust manifolds. Anyone that looks at the 6.4 exhaust manifolds will say that there is room for improvement. My question is has anyone done a true before and after with the 6.0 manifolds? Is there the potential that Ford/International knew what they were doing with the 6.4 manifolds and they are actually not as bad as we all think? They might flow less but could that be better for whatever reason for this motor? For the record I think the 6.0's are a great option but I want to know what sort of upgrade I am getting. There was a bunch of hype on the Steed Speed manifolds and that isn't turning out so good as of now........ is there the chance that the 6.0's aren't that good either for this motor?
3. Intake manifold. Guys were saying it will add hp for sure. Then I think no one came up with real numbers. Then everyone said well even if it doesn't add hp you are still getting air flow to the two back cylinders that aren't getting air with the stock manifold so you aren't going to burn up those pistons. There has been much debate.
4. LPFP. First off let me say I think this is a good idea for the better/easier to get to filters and all around is a good idea. When guys first started doing these I believe they said they will give you more rail pressure and allow you to run bigger nozzles and ported fuel rails and you will make more power. I think recently someone said they got no more hp or rail pressure BUT the pressure didn't dip BUT they still didn't get any more hp so the fuel pressure dip wasn't hurting performance right? Now guys are saying that if you upgrade the LPFP it will help the life of the HPFP. Ok....... have we reached the point where we are trying to justify our purchase? Once again I want to reiterate that I am not calling anyone out or trying to be a smart ass, I am just asking the question.
5. Wastegates/BOV. Some guys say to do them some guys say don't.
6. The cold air side pipe coming out of the intercooler/heat exchanger. A bunch of people have products and I will agree that the factory Ford design is pretty sorry but I think the general consensus is that no one can feel a difference and the EGT's aren't very different. Is the factory design hurting us that much?
7. Intercooler. I have not heard about these in quite sometime which leads me to believe they are not worth the money. I don't think there has been that many stock failures and when guys do change them out I am not sure if they ever felt the gain was worth the money.
8. Batmo's. I know there was a big long thread about this and I might get the facts incorrect on this one. Which one works? The LP the HP or both? What kind of gains does it really get OR is like the batmo's on a Dmax where there is really little gain but EGT's go down? I think everyone has decided that the HP is good but don't do the LP since there is not much to gain.
These are all the items that I can think of at the moment that have been the "while you are there" when you got your cab lifted up in the air. I know some of these items can be done with the cab on, some of them have to, but it also goes back to the other phrase of "do it all at once and do it right the first time". The question to both of these phrases is what is really necessary and what do I have to gain so I can make an educated decision on what I am going to do "while I am there".
IMO there is a huge problem in the aftermarket world with hype and actual performance. Personally I don't care if your Pipe/heads/valves/HPFP/LPFP/manifolds/nozzles/whatever will flow X amount of CFM more than stock or pump X amount GPM more than stock. I don't think it is too much to ask what sort of HP gains or added reliability will I see from said mod before I shell out my hard earned cash on a product. I know this is not necessarily an easy thing to do. If I was to make a performance product specifically for the 6.4 I would test that product and only that product on a before and after dyno run on the same truck. I don't think this is asking for too much. If you are already spending so much on R&D on the product what does this test cost? Some might say what sort of truck do you do the test on. My response would be do it on the truck that is most common. Other than a handful of guys doing radical builds most of us have the mods that you can do without lifting the cab. Delete , tune, CAI, Straight pipe, DP and the cold side pipe.
Sorry for being long winded. I have made my list several times of things that I am going to do "while I am there" if heaven forbid my HG decide to start leaking. That list has changed several times. I think this has to do with what mad man is fighting right now which is does it really need to be changed? Is stock good enough? Is this product over hyped? What sort of gains will I see? Has anyone confirmed the claimed gains? Is the money worth the claimed gains? IMO there are several products that can't answer those questions and if they can then they are highly debated. Once again I want to say one last time that I am not calling anyone out, I am just asking the questions that are on my mind. If I buy product X what sort of HP can I expect so I can make the educated decision if the gain is worth the money. If I buy product X for reliability explain to me why it is an improvement so I can make the educated decision if it is worth the money to potentially save a 10k motor.
Fast-6.0
New member
Excellent Post! As I commented on Madman's post, too many times someone thinks out loud and then it starts the ball rolling concerning a product. I personally like to see proof of gains, which is why we have been doing a huge amount of testing so that we can create a nice display of changes that our products create. As much as people bash Gale Banks, I like their product sheets that show what they found with their products. Elite is working on providing documentation on what our product will do.
I am with you on the way Banks displays their data. From what I understand what they claim is usually pretty accurate. Based on my own experience a long time ago my cousin put their power pack or some sort of bundled deal on his OBS 7.3. He did a true before and after and it was pretty close to what was advertised. It was not peak HP but he had HP gains throughout the the power band that was close to the advertised amount.
Lets please not get on a tangent about Banks....... Everyone knows they are not the best option yada yada yada. I just like the way or at least the way the used to document their claims and wished more people would do it. I would like to think that this is a reason why they have been successful. An average Joe that does not know anything about trucks can pick up a truck magazine and see that I can order a 3k kit that will get them 120 hp and 250 lbft. Now the million dollar question is are these claims accurate. Based on my experience they were.
If someone puts a product to market that has good results, post those results and you have a few folks substantiating your claims then your product will sell like hot cakes. This is something that has not happened for the 6.4 market IMO. With that said I understand why it has not happened due to the lifting of the cab issue. I know that I wouldn't want to be the guy that spends the time and money to dyno a truck, lift the cab, make one modification , put the cab back on and then redyno the truck. It is just the product of the beast with these trucks but lets not jump all over people (not just this instance in particular) for their opinions or what they did in their build. Up until this point I don't think that I would have done push rods. I understand the concept that you have a stiffer valve you probably need a stiffer push rod but I know that stock components are over designed so I figured that they were OK. Take our crank for example, it is standing up to some serious HP...... In some peoples experience three or four times over stock. I honestly thought that our pushrods would be OK. Yeah they are relatively cheap up grade but should you do something just for the sake of doing something or because everyone else is doing it? Now that I saw the post about the deflection and the 20 hp gain I have changed my mind. Point of all of this is we need more posts like the one you did Tadd. Based on nothing in your sig I assume you are not a manufacturer so I don't think you have anything to gain by posting what you found. Just like the guy that reported what his experience was about the Steed Speed manifolds. They claimed 90 hp, he lost 50 hp so we all asked what gives? If my HG gave out a month ago the Steed Speeds would have been something that I would have done "while I was there" but now that no one has substantiated their claims I will hold off and this is exactly what we need more of IMO.
Fast-6.0
New member
Actually, I own Elite Diesel. That being said I want people to know what we claim, see why we claim it, and be able to duplicate it on their vehicle. We were involved in Steedspeed testing you mentioned also.
Oh..... Well I was close hahahahahahaha. I am really glad to see your post about the push rods though. That was very informative and helpful. I also am looking forward to the results you guys get with Steed Speed as I have seen nothing but good about you guys so I value what you report.
Let me ask you one question since you seem to be a reasonable guy. Please do not take this as criticism or me calling you out, I just have a couple of questions. Let me take your stage 1 cam as an example. I see on your web site that you say that it will increase HP and torque through out the power band. It also states that it will let you extend the RPM range to 4k which I imagine is the main goal of the cam based on the emphasis on it in the description. Why don't you guys put in the description of the cam something along the lines of on X truck with X modifications we went from X hp at X RPM to X hp at the same RPM and then post before and after dyno tests. As I have stated before I know this takes time and money. But as I read the description you have now it seems that the main emphasis is the ability to extend the peak hp to 4k and a guy like me, which I think is the majority of potential customers, has no need or want to go to 4k for my peak hp. But if the same cam gets me 15 more hp at 25 and 50 lbft at 2k RPM that is something that I might be interested in. You cam is very reasonably priced at 600 bucks and in the grand scheme of things is not a lot of money which could be a very potential upgrade for a guy like me if I ever pull my cab to do studs. But as it stands right now I don't have enough info from you guys to make an educated decision. Like I said before please do not take this as me calling you out or that I am questioning your word.
madman1234509
New member
^^^ There hasnt really been a good before and after test on anyones cam and springs, not just Elites. I myself have an RCD cam and springs which is a colt cam, and I put it in while my motor was apart, to this day no evidence besides the seat of the pants feel that it has any substantial gains. Its still a hype over fact kind of thing, which is pretty bad considering its one of the more expensive "do it while your in there" parts. Noone takes the cab off and pulls the motor or pulls the tranny (what ever method they use to install the cam) with the sole purpose of just putting the cam in.
Its pretty crazy how all of us (including myself) buy these (pretty expensive) products with little to no real world evidence and basically a "yea its going to make you run better" referrings to a 600+ cam/valvesprings/pushrods or an intake manifold for 1200 bucks.
Or how about everyone thinking they are getting a performance gain from putting an airdog on. If you are running a high tune and have relatively low mileage healthy pumps, and can maintain rail pressure, and then go spend 600+ on a lift pump or a whole system, what are you gaining if you could already maintain rail pressure on the stock system? Its really only worth while if your stock lift pump is tired and cant keep up (and doing it before you let your hpfp get tired from lack of fuel being fed to it), or if you plan on upgrading injector pumps and tips
Its pretty crazy how all of us (including myself) buy these (pretty expensive) products with little to no real world evidence and basically a "yea its going to make you run better" referrings to a 600+ cam/valvesprings/pushrods or an intake manifold for 1200 bucks.
Or how about everyone thinking they are getting a performance gain from putting an airdog on. If you are running a high tune and have relatively low mileage healthy pumps, and can maintain rail pressure, and then go spend 600+ on a lift pump or a whole system, what are you gaining if you could already maintain rail pressure on the stock system? Its really only worth while if your stock lift pump is tired and cant keep up (and doing it before you let your hpfp get tired from lack of fuel being fed to it), or if you plan on upgrading injector pumps and tips
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Yeah I hear ya mad man. Like I said before I am not calling anyone out on their products, especially Elite. A bunch of people use their products and they have been around for a while so they have to be doing something right. I also hear what you are saying about some of these not having to be a cab off "while you are there" but it fits into the you are already spending X on X so why not spend a fraction of what you are already spending and just do it all so you can "do it right the first time". It is just hard to find a stopping point just like when you are hunting for a new truck or a new home. I can get this for X amount or I can spend a little more and get this which is better. When do you stop? Obviously this is a hard question to answer.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this statement. Nothing is cheap about these trucks (purchase price, maintenance etc) and I think we all knew that when we purchased the truck. I am surprised and quite frankly jealous sometimes when I am reading these posts at some of the cash that some people spend on their truck. It is either some folks make a lot more money than I do or they spend a really good portion of their income on modding their truck. I am by no means questioning people's decisions that they make. I am a firm believer that at the end of the day you have to do what makes you happy and if going all out on modding your truck makes you happy by all means go for it and don't look back.
I like to think I make a pretty good income. Before taxes without figuring in my bonus I make about 1300 a week. I got a truck payment, my wife's car payment, house payment, bills associated with a good sized house, FREAKING GAS/DIESEL bill, family insurance (good lord don't get me started) and I am trying to start a family. With all of these costs in the equation that doesn't leave piles of money laying around. So when some people say "while you are there" go ahead and spend 400-600 extra on something I want to know what I am getting since that is not chump change to a guy like me. So when guys throw out statements like go ahead and get you some two powers you will love it like it aint no thing. Tow powers are 3k. Then you have some guys say no go to high powers and never look back. They are 7.5k. I wish I could shell out that kind of money and I am jealous of the guys that can. I know elite put a dyno graph on their web site on what power you can make on the tow powers. What it does not tell me is what mods were done to that truck. Is it on stock fuel/Manifolds/etc? What I would really like to know what did the same truck put down before the turbo swap. This would let me know exactly what I am getting for 3k which is a bunch of money to a guy like me. I keep saying this but I think it is important because I really don't want to piss anyone off but I am not calling anyone out or questioning anyone's decisions. I made the decision to buy a bigger house than I needed in a nicer neighborhood than I really needed to be in and start a family because that is what is important to me at this point and time in my life. It pretty much kills my truck mod budget. So if and when I get the opportunity to make some mods I want to know what I am getting because right now there is a bunch of hear say and a bunch of conflicting reports on items that are not cheap.
I just don't think it is too much to ask when I am spending a good chunk of change on any sort of upgrade that they should be able to tell me approximately how much HP gain I can expect since they did a test on X truck and it made X hp before we installed said product and afterwords it made X hp for a gain of X hp.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this statement. Nothing is cheap about these trucks (purchase price, maintenance etc) and I think we all knew that when we purchased the truck. I am surprised and quite frankly jealous sometimes when I am reading these posts at some of the cash that some people spend on their truck. It is either some folks make a lot more money than I do or they spend a really good portion of their income on modding their truck. I am by no means questioning people's decisions that they make. I am a firm believer that at the end of the day you have to do what makes you happy and if going all out on modding your truck makes you happy by all means go for it and don't look back.
I like to think I make a pretty good income. Before taxes without figuring in my bonus I make about 1300 a week. I got a truck payment, my wife's car payment, house payment, bills associated with a good sized house, FREAKING GAS/DIESEL bill, family insurance (good lord don't get me started) and I am trying to start a family. With all of these costs in the equation that doesn't leave piles of money laying around. So when some people say "while you are there" go ahead and spend 400-600 extra on something I want to know what I am getting since that is not chump change to a guy like me. So when guys throw out statements like go ahead and get you some two powers you will love it like it aint no thing. Tow powers are 3k. Then you have some guys say no go to high powers and never look back. They are 7.5k. I wish I could shell out that kind of money and I am jealous of the guys that can. I know elite put a dyno graph on their web site on what power you can make on the tow powers. What it does not tell me is what mods were done to that truck. Is it on stock fuel/Manifolds/etc? What I would really like to know what did the same truck put down before the turbo swap. This would let me know exactly what I am getting for 3k which is a bunch of money to a guy like me. I keep saying this but I think it is important because I really don't want to piss anyone off but I am not calling anyone out or questioning anyone's decisions. I made the decision to buy a bigger house than I needed in a nicer neighborhood than I really needed to be in and start a family because that is what is important to me at this point and time in my life. It pretty much kills my truck mod budget. So if and when I get the opportunity to make some mods I want to know what I am getting because right now there is a bunch of hear say and a bunch of conflicting reports on items that are not cheap.
I just don't think it is too much to ask when I am spending a good chunk of change on any sort of upgrade that they should be able to tell me approximately how much HP gain I can expect since they did a test on X truck and it made X hp before we installed said product and afterwords it made X hp for a gain of X hp.
Fast-6.0
New member
We actually just did a cam before and after test. Nothing more. I just have to go through all the data. We did a ton of datalogs.
Also on the same truck we did an airdog before and after. We didn't gain anything, and we are low on rail pressure.
Keep an eye on our turbos, intake manifold, cam, Steedspeeds, etc. Data heavy info is in the works for questions exactly like you are asking.
Also on the same truck we did an airdog before and after. We didn't gain anything, and we are low on rail pressure.
Keep an eye on our turbos, intake manifold, cam, Steedspeeds, etc. Data heavy info is in the works for questions exactly like you are asking.
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Awesome Tadd. I look forward to seeing the results. I am really not trying to sound like a B!tch about all of this but we just aren't talking about pennies when it comes to some of these mods. As I am sure you already know and you have to deal with this a bunch, there just seems to be a bunch of hearsay when it comes to some of this stuff.
madman1234509
New member
That is really great to hear... Im glad you guys are doing that. Its not doubt that you make good products and sweet turbos kits and stuff like that. But like stated above, sometimes its hard to justify some things when there is no evidence. Im excited to see all of the different things you guys find! Lol esp the cam, since people have talked about it for 1 1/2 years now with little evidence supporting.
Black_Lightning91
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Just adding another point to the hype vs fact area. How can testing be done that proves the results as no two modified trucks are completely the same. Hell with the somewhat lose tolerances built into these trucks they vary greatly from truck to truck completely stock. My take on "knowing" what your truck needs or doesn't need is for you to learn the in's and out's of the truck, drivetrain and all sub-systems. Then based on your goals build as you see fit. Then test yourself data logging tweeking measuring to make sure the result is what you desired. If not refer back to your understanding of how said system functions and adjust to meet your goals. Sounds like a lot of learning and testing right? Well it is but since its on your time you don't really pay for it and by doing so you would know that what you have is in fact what you need. No sales pitch, no hype, no bull unless of course its all your own creation in which case well problem sounds personal. I think these days we expect to much from the aftermarket. People want to know how x part from "elite" (just for reference) will work with y part from "mpd" and so on but do you really expect every manufacture to test his parts against all competion in all setups ect ect? If you do then expect those R&D cost to be passed to you as well for this info. To often on here someone with this setup actually back to back tests this new what ever and get x results then everyone goes OMG WTF blah blah. Well how do you know his truck was properly set up for this part? Was this part setup for his truck or even right for his truck? How do his other modifications, adjustments, driving style and even tolerences in the motor from the manufacture differ from yours and how does this effect the outcome. So what Im saying is if your looking for every part to produce x claim on any setup or that some things won't improve A setup but hinder B set up, then your thinking is irrational and flawed. To often people buy a product knowing nothing more then the add said or so and so said, then try to pass this limited info as fact when in fact they have no facts at all completely here-say unless you yourself test it. No offence to Elite or any other manufature who makes claims of products with any amount of proof unless I experienced it and did the testing then guess what it was told to me and is here-say. So you tell me how to seperate fact from hype/here-say? Easy, facts don't actually exist. There are however commonly accepted theories that have yet to be dis-proven.
Powerstroked162
On Da Juice
Having access to a dyno really helps take those "theories" to fact in just a couple pulls. Which is why a lot of testing is being done on the available products for the 6.4's. It takes a lot of time to get that kind of data together and usable for the average joe. Once it is though, you guys will have all the info you could want on different setups out there to help you with your purchases. Not to beat a dead horse or anything but a wonderful example of this is the 71mm batmo wheel testing. Ever since release from Bullseye/MPD that wheel has been hyped up beyond it's ability to preform but nobody had the data to say one way or another until a week ago. Without that testing, the wheel would have continued to have sold off it's hype and "theory", hell it probably still will, but the point is that the dyno has a wonderful ability to show unbiased proof of modification benefits or lack their of. It's a great tool to have, and the data works well for customers alike. Doing this non-stop testing is gonna help everybody get a clearer picture for sure.
lubeowner
New member
The whole 71 batmo is just stupid. Why would you take off a precision wheel? Anyone who knows anything about precision knows they make the most power, it is just that they can be very easily over speed. That is why most pullers own two precisions, one on the truck and one getting rebuilt.
Breaking Habits
New member
Solid post dude, removing a 71mm precision for a batmo, seems kind of pointless. Now a k31 to a batmo, yes. Has anyone really started doing a GTX vs Precision comparison. Now that, I will subscribe to.
madman1234509
New member
^^ that I would like to see ... For the amount the charge from a gtr to a gtx, I better see some big gains
I hear what you are saying black lightning. I understand that there are different set ups with different manufacturers and as I have stated before I know it is hard to just do one modification on these trucks. I will disagree with you on no two trucks are exactly the same. Give or take a very little I imagine that if you took two trucks with 50k mi on them and put the same CAI, delete straight pipe and the same tune on them the numbers would be pretty close. And I imagine even if you changed up the manufacturer of the CAI or the manufacturer of the exhaust you would still be pretty close if you kept the tune the same. I just don't think it is asking too much to get some info from the guys who are making the product on a before and after test with a list of the previous modifications on the test truck. Someone please let me know if I am out of line when asking for this information.
It is the same process that I go through when purchasing anything else. I am not making this up, this actually happened the other day. A power company called me the other day and said that they could reduce my electrical bill substantially. I said OK, what is your rate. She said that she would have to check for my specific area/location but a bunch of people in my area have switched and are very happy, would you like to sign up? I said OK, what is your rate? She said well it depends on when you sign up because it changes daily and also it depends on how long of a commitment you sign for. I said OK, if I sign up today for 1 year what is your rate? She never answered my question. Point being the lady was trying to convince me that I could "upgrade" but couldn't give me any hard data. Why wouldn't we require any less in the upgrades we do on our trucks?
I just can't keep from thinking that if I was going to take the time to come up with some sort of upgrade I would want to give my potential customers good info to persuade them to buy my product. I would do a before and after on the same truck on the same dyno so I can give a better description of my product other than it will significantly improve HP/TQ, give you better MPG's and better reliability.
I do expect a lot from the aftermarket and let me tell you why. If I am going to drop ten grand on something (turbo's) I am going to expect a lot from it. If I am going to drop 400 bucks a tire I am going to expect a lot from it when I could easily make due with a cheaper tire.
I agree with you here. I would never expect to know what I should get from the situation you described above. What I would expect is something along these lines. If you use a 300+ tune with our X you should get X results. Add our X on top of that and you can expect X results. This way you hit up two categories of folks not just one.
That is why I would like to know what the previous modifications were done to the test truck.
I completely understand and agree with you. Someone could come out and say that their turbo produced 900 hp on a 6.4. What they don't say is that it had dual fuelers on it. Like I said before all I what to see is the results of a before and after and let me know what kind of mods the truck had on it.
In my mind it would be pretty easy. Lets say Elite, complete hypothetical situation here, comes out and says that they put their stage 1 cam in a guys truck that already had tow powers on it and had KEM's 310 tune on and nothing more. They show us a dyno graph that displays this truck making 700 hp now when it used to make 630. Customer Joe see's that and says "crap I am running a 300+ tune and I got tow powers but I am only putting down 625...... maybe Elites cam might be a good option". It wouldn't be the ideal situation I will give you that but it gives us more info than we have right now.
As said before I am not trying to start a argument with anyone. I know it is hard to get good data with these trucks and nothing is ever set in stone as you have pointed out. I just wish we had some data other than "it will improve hp and tq".
It is the same process that I go through when purchasing anything else. I am not making this up, this actually happened the other day. A power company called me the other day and said that they could reduce my electrical bill substantially. I said OK, what is your rate. She said that she would have to check for my specific area/location but a bunch of people in my area have switched and are very happy, would you like to sign up? I said OK, what is your rate? She said well it depends on when you sign up because it changes daily and also it depends on how long of a commitment you sign for. I said OK, if I sign up today for 1 year what is your rate? She never answered my question. Point being the lady was trying to convince me that I could "upgrade" but couldn't give me any hard data. Why wouldn't we require any less in the upgrades we do on our trucks?
I just can't keep from thinking that if I was going to take the time to come up with some sort of upgrade I would want to give my potential customers good info to persuade them to buy my product. I would do a before and after on the same truck on the same dyno so I can give a better description of my product other than it will significantly improve HP/TQ, give you better MPG's and better reliability.
I do expect a lot from the aftermarket and let me tell you why. If I am going to drop ten grand on something (turbo's) I am going to expect a lot from it. If I am going to drop 400 bucks a tire I am going to expect a lot from it when I could easily make due with a cheaper tire.
I agree with you here. I would never expect to know what I should get from the situation you described above. What I would expect is something along these lines. If you use a 300+ tune with our X you should get X results. Add our X on top of that and you can expect X results. This way you hit up two categories of folks not just one.
That is why I would like to know what the previous modifications were done to the test truck.
I completely understand and agree with you. Someone could come out and say that their turbo produced 900 hp on a 6.4. What they don't say is that it had dual fuelers on it. Like I said before all I what to see is the results of a before and after and let me know what kind of mods the truck had on it.
In my mind it would be pretty easy. Lets say Elite, complete hypothetical situation here, comes out and says that they put their stage 1 cam in a guys truck that already had tow powers on it and had KEM's 310 tune on and nothing more. They show us a dyno graph that displays this truck making 700 hp now when it used to make 630. Customer Joe see's that and says "crap I am running a 300+ tune and I got tow powers but I am only putting down 625...... maybe Elites cam might be a good option". It wouldn't be the ideal situation I will give you that but it gives us more info than we have right now.
As said before I am not trying to start a argument with anyone. I know it is hard to get good data with these trucks and nothing is ever set in stone as you have pointed out. I just wish we had some data other than "it will improve hp and tq".
