Smoke Free Horsepower

tjl · Mar 5, 2012

How can you make roughly 400 smoke free horsepower. My truck currently makes 397/800 but it's pretty smokey. I'm looking for proven combinations. I don't want this to turn in to a pi&&ing match. I'm looking for knowledgable solutions.

JD3020 · Mar 5, 2012

I'd say a good starting place would be to post a list of your current mods.

tjl · Mar 5, 2012

Guess I did leave that part out. :fustrate:

Stage 1 injectors, D66 turbo, intercooler, modified IDM, intake, exhaust, TS 6 pos chip live tuned by BDP.

SouthFlstrokin' · Mar 5, 2012

I have 175/30s with gearhead tunes and a stock turbo and its virtually smokeless. I'm actually wondering if Matt pulled too much fuel... Never had tunes like this. It smokes less now then it did when I had stock abs and swamps tunes.

97BambiBasherPSD · Mar 5, 2012

How smokey is your truck now? To some a light haze fine others don't want any at all. Personally I would rather have a slight haze than none at all

Sent from my Pear phone using Tapatalk

Charles · Mar 5, 2012

Contrary to popular belief.... you're probably going to need some larger nozzles.

If I was shooting for 400rwhp and I wanted to clean it.... I would honestly run a 200 EDM. No question.

If you can't get the required fuel for the power into the cylinder quick enough, then it's going to be spraying late, and nothing else, aside from an oxidizer is going to make that fact go away.

mandkole · Mar 5, 2012

Charles-- very interesting...

I've thought about this a little but have never seen performance feedback on a 160/200. Given what you said, why would you ever want to run a stock nozzle? Would a small injector be happier with big nozzles at all PWs? Or, would a 200 be almost pissy at low PW-- meaning, a dead player at stock PWs and then strong at longer PWs? I'd think that a quick empty would also generate a lot of early CP as well...

Charles · Mar 5, 2012

mandkole said:
Charles-- very interesting...

I've thought about this a little but have never seen performance feedback on a 160/200. Given what you said, why would you ever want to run a stock nozzle? Would a small injector be happier with big nozzles at all PWs? Or, would a 200 be almost pissy at low PW-- meaning, a dead player at stock PWs and then strong at longer PWs? I'd think that a quick empty would also generate a lot of early CP as well...

You should pick nozzle based on target power. If the vehicle target is 175 to 200rwhp, then a stock ~0.006" 7 holer is probably decent.

If you want 300rwhp, then probably a 100%.

400rwhp, probably 200.

You have to target your optimum power range with a nozzle, just like a cam on a gasser. With a larger nozzle you can make more power at the same rpm/egt at the cost of reduced low power efficiency.

With a smaller nozzle you can have more efficiency at low power at the cost of higher power efficiency, and just plain old can't make but ____ power, because you can't get the fuel in the hole.

As far as CP.... you decrease the pw and decrease the timing for a given power output. The engine will run cooler, cleaner and with less stress at 400rwhp with a 200 edm than with say a 30% EDM. All, day, long.

Look at a stock nozzle compared to a 100%. A stock nozzle can support upward of 400rwhp, I've done it. But the duration required for it to get enough fuel in the hole is just dumb. Lots of smoke and timing requirements are higher. You have to start early, and spray late to get the fuel in the hole.

A stock nozzle will usually make 300rwhp to 320 or so. Maybe 350 with a 38R lets say. And at what smoke level? And at what EGT sustained WOT?

HOT. And smokey.

My 550 has 100% nozzles with a 38R and makes ~300rwhp with no WOT smoke, and a sustained WOT egt of between 1100 and 1200 degrees, forever. Fully loaded at full power it will not run over 1200 degrees.

You will never do that with a stock nozzle at the same power. It can't get the fuel in the window that quick.

For 400hp, he NEEDS to be running 200 EDM's. That nozzle laughs at 400hp, instead of straining to reach it.

Bustedknuckles · Mar 5, 2012

Stock Duramax. Idahorob tunes. Done

Charles · Mar 5, 2012

Bustedknuckles said:
Stock Duramax. Idahorob tunes. Done

If we wanted CR injection in the mix, a 6.4 would damn sure make more power than a duraturd stock, lol.

blackbetty13 · Mar 5, 2012

matts tunes are truely amazing, also a dual ball bearing charger that lights quicker will reduce smoke.

mandkole · Mar 5, 2012

good stuff.. I just had it in my noggin that 200 was too big for the small injector. Reduced PW should also require less demand from the oil pump as well.

Charles · Mar 6, 2012

mandkole said:
good stuff.. I just had it in my noggin that 200 was too big for the small injector. Reduced PW should also require less demand from the oil pump as well.

It's still going to move the same fuel, probably more. So the average oil consumption will be the same if the fuel was the same. The instantaneous oil requirement would jump up considerably.

The reason you can inject the same or more fuel and smoke less is that you're injecting the fuel in a usable window.

Perfect example...

I always see the CR guys cranking up the injector duration and pressure until the truck is chugging like a train, and if someone suggests a bigger nozzle, they respond, "can't you see how much fuel it's already got". When the problem wasn't fuel quantity, it was fuel rate.

A larger nozzle will allow you to "place" the fuel into the hole in a functional timeframe.

The next most common F-up, is when these types then switch to a larger nozzle, yet make no reduction to injection duration, making the driveability disappear and the truck a turd if the change was dramatic.

So they switch back..... citing something along the lines of it being "too much fuel" or something. When in reality they were too dense to adjust the program and call for a practical duration for the injection rate in play. This is also why most of these trucks have a very touchy pedal. A seeming inability for people to reduce the fuel demands to account for the increased injection rate of the nozzles.

I have every intention of running something about equivalent to the 200 EDM when I get to play with the seimens injectors. F these bs little nozzles on CR injectors. Whatever doesn't want to play will get corrected until it does. Lotsa pressure and decent nozzle holes is big power.

juniort444e · Mar 6, 2012

I just put on my new tunes, and beside the old tunes masking some problems and a few things that are going to be tweaked once i get my AE in, I LOVE THEM. They are virtually smoke free, pedal feels stock again, the transmission shifts how it should. All around very impressed.

I still get a haze at certain times, but not as bad as before. I would say live tuning could get more out of your setup and clear up a lot of smoke.

superduty4x4 · Mar 6, 2012

Charles said:
You have to target your optimum power range with a nozzle, just like a cam on a gasser. With a larger nozzle you can make more power at the same rpm/egt at the cost of reduced low power efficiency.

With a smaller nozzle you can have more efficiency at low power at the cost of higher power efficiency, and just plain old can't make but ____ power, because you can't get the fuel in the hole.

Question... for a guy that's not overly concerned with total HP but just wants a solid running DD that has occasional tow duties, would you recommend a smaller nozzle then?
My truck is running Hypermax Stage 1's with Tyrant tunes right now and it's a smoky ass freaking PIG, and getting horrible mpg. I've got some issues to run down, but once that's done I'd like to get it as smoke free as I can.

Charles · Mar 7, 2012

superduty4x4 said:
Question... for a guy that's not overly concerned with total HP but just wants a solid running DD that has occasional tow duties, would you recommend a smaller nozzle then?
My truck is running Hypermax Stage 1's with Tyrant tunes right now and it's a smoky ass freaking PIG, and getting horrible mpg. I've got some issues to run down, but once that's done I'd like to get it as smoke free as I can.

I could take a truck with bone stock injectors and make it a complete smokey pile of fail just trying to get up to 40mph empty if I wanted to write a pathetic program for stock nozzles.

If the truck is in good working order then controlling smoke is a very simple thing in the tuning.

I don't care if the truck is running 400+ nozzles, there should be no problem controlling smoke under power if that's your goal. The larger nozzles will simply have a little bit of a hazing issue at idle or near idle especially when it's cold out, or they are left sitting.

Gearhead · Mar 7, 2012

The only heartburn I have with the 200% nozzles is that for a street truck you give up some crispness below 2000 rpms because you have a very large injection window compared to where peak HP happens. The pulsewidth is just too short under these conditions (not at wot) for optimal operation, and you can only drop ICP so much before running into atomization issues. We need a 120% ir so nozzle that starts with a .009 edm and just gets slightly cleaned up with eh. Just like the 80% nozzles, it will be clean and controllable and better than the current 100% nozzles that get too much EH machining.

Charles · Mar 7, 2012

Gearhead said:
The only heartburn I have with the 200% nozzles is that for a street truck you give up some crispness below 2000 rpms because you have a very large injection window compared to where peak HP happens. The pulsewidth is just too short under these conditions (not at wot) for optimal operation, and you can only drop ICP so much before running into atomization issues. We need a 120% ir so nozzle that starts with a .009 edm and just gets slightly cleaned up with eh. Just like the 80% nozzles, it will be clean and controllable and better than the current 100% nozzles that get too much EH machining.

I just don't see the crispness lacking in the 200's anywhere. 1100 or so psi at that rpm and they're gold. In fact, they are crisper than the 100's in my 550 now sub 2000rpm.

Only place they're compromised IMO, is straight idle. The resolution just isn't there to have perfection when such a tiny fuel demand is required. Everywhere else, I just can't agree. Damn they're crisp.

superduty4x4 · Mar 7, 2012

Charles said:
I could take a truck with bone stock injectors and make it a complete smokey pile of fail just trying to get up to 40mph empty if I wanted to write a pathetic program for stock nozzles.

If the truck is in good working order then controlling smoke is a very simple thing in the tuning.

I don't care if the truck is running 400+ nozzles, there should be no problem controlling smoke under power if that's your goal. The larger nozzles will simply have a little bit of a hazing issue at idle or near idle especially when it's cold out, or they are left sitting.

I know I need to chase down some issues with my truck, but being a single dad and not having another rig to drive I haven't had the time to park it long enough to diagnose/fix the issues its having. Basically, if I get into the throttle at all, it pours black smoke. It has ever since I put the chip and injectors in, and the tuner I'm using is hard to get ahold of, at best.