2015-2016 Super Duty Active Regeneration Jack Hammer Valve Issue

[lincolnlocker]

Seems to be the fix lol. Would you call me weird that I like how it's quiet and has no smell, etc?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

lol.. its weird that the truck is that way.. mine is still quieter then my 7.3s.. in the cab anyway...

live life full throttle

 

[Maryland dieselnick]

First, I'm not saying it's rampant but there are trucks including 16s doing it.
Ford needs EPA approval for PCM changes. One is supposedly going to be tried in the second quarter of 2016. These trucks have the same strategies. Some are fine in this condition dept. goes while others do not. Once the head is on the bench with the springs removed, the true root cause is revealed. A quality control defect, guide stem clearances too tight and every truck and or guides are just a bit different manifesting itself at different miles. Some do it regen number one and the clearance on the bench at room temp is way too tight, let alone at high temps. There engineers are even saying they are not sure a new calibration will take care of it. This is because some are tighter than others.

 

[bigrpowr]

First, I'm not saying it's rampant but there are trucks including 16s doing it.
Ford needs EPA approval for PCM changes. One is supposedly going to be tried in the second quarter of 2016. These trucks have the same strategies. Some are fine in this condition dept. goes while others do not. Once the head is on the bench with the springs removed, the true root cause is revealed. A quality control defect, guide stem clearances too tight and every truck and or guides are just a bit different manifesting itself at different miles. Some do it regen number one and the clearance on the bench at room temp is way too tight, let alone at high temps. There engineers are even saying they are not sure a new calibration will take care of it. This is because some are tighter than others.

these issues you speak of are pretty rare. you seem very fired up about it though. why the witch hunt ? did a ford engineer bang your wife?

 

[Maryland dieselnick]

Jomax if it starts happening you have choices.
You mentioned one. Will it be too late? No . The geometry used in the valve arraignment along with it being stiction and not a seizure, it is not instant catastrophic damage.
The d word action of components of any sort would also need a new program that does not fire the injectors on the exhaust stroke, which is causing the thermal expansion causing the problem with trucks that have clearances that are too tight to tolerate that without causing stiction.
You can take the head to a machine shop with a great reputation for high performance engine work. They can open that guide up and even put a .0015 taper in its end. Hey may even have a source for a quality valve in stelite ( powdered cobalt coated). The original is a valve that can be had for $7 and change so a source for a possible upgrade would be good.
If it happens and you want to dance with ford, you need to get it to a shop that already knows what's up, jumps in and then tells ford there are going with a new head as just replacing the valves just puts new valves into a guide that is too tight. He must check new head valve stem guide c,earances before fitting new head or he might be slapping on the same problem.

 

[Maryland dieselnick]

Bigpowr im not saying all trucks have this. I'm explaining what happens to some. Everyone who it does happen to sure do want to know what is happening. I do this for a living and have a passion for it so I enjoy talking diesel stuff. So there is no witch hunt or anything else.

 

[Jason]

Sounds like a diesel stop thread all over again. Home of the Walker BTM, Hutch and Harpoon mods, and DP Tuners in every 7.3!!

When some guy had referenced his tuned 7.3 truck as being scary fast, and an insane amount of power, and how he never knew his truck could be THAT FAST on dp's 140 race tune...I stopped giving any credibility to that place...and that was 10 years ago.

 

[AllGo'N'Show]

Sub'd *knock knock*

 

[Powerstroke Man 6.4]

Subbed

 

[CurtisF]

Curtis, nobody is here doing those things.
I have already explained the stiction due to thermal expansion. I also explained how this happens and does not bend the valve due to the geometry used.

No, you explained nothing, because if the piston and valve was making contact, there would be visible proof. It always leaves marks. Marks that Ford would see immediately.

But there are none. That's the first and the biggest hole in your fairy tale. This is also exactly why you have been laughed off other forums and left in a hissy fit.

You have corroborating ford repair order posted. Wharrell is the owner of one of these trucks.

From a dealer mechanic?!?!?! And exactly what engineering specs did he use? Or was he coached to write that by the truck owner because you told the owner what to say?

I'm a diesel and hydro tech business owner with 31 yrs. of professional experience. I do engine failure analysis as well as consults for other pro shops.
I have a earned a stellar reputation and that is not going to change.

Really? Then why can't you answer basic questions? Why is it that when pressed for even just simple information, you throw a fit and leave the forum?

Regarding PCM recalibration. It is possible to change the thermal dynamics of the event, yes. Does it change a clearance that is too tight and will change as the escape vent gas builds a normal film on that stem.
Band aid fixes are no Bueno. But may help some owners but it depends how tight they are.

A clearance issue would also present itself when not in regen. Yet it doesn't happen. That's another gigantic hole in your story.

 

[CurtisF]

so you mean to tell me that the reported noises, that sound like valves getting hammered by the pistons and pushrods, are electrical/tuning issues and not mechanical at all? even after a complete head assembly is swapped out and the issues doesn't come back or take a while to return? that tells me its mechanical, not electrical...

It's a mechanical issue brought on by the regen. But the issue is not what these two thread starters describe. And it's not causing damage to the engine.

It does have to do with the valves, but not because of clearances or tolerances.

but if tweaks in the tunning will get rid of it, how come it aint done already?

It took Ford a while to figure it out. Valve clearance would have been easy, that can be measured. If the pistons were slapping valves, that would have been easy because Ford would have seen the evidence of contact. But none of that is happening.

So they figured out it had to do with the regen at very specific loads and RPM's. But in order to change that they require lots of testing, and EPA approval once their testing is complete. Current ETA is 1Q 2016.


That's the thing that Maryland diesel nick can't get through his head.... this issue is at VERY specific engine loads and RPM's, and ONLY during regen. Clearance issues with valves would not be limited to presenting issues under only those conditions, but rather it would extend at minimum at other RPM's and loads, and even present itself outside of regen. Not only that, but if the valves were hitting the pistons, they would always leave a mark as evidence of the contact somewhere on the face of the piston and valve. Yet no evidence like this has ever been presented, and trucks that are having heads replaced when customers complain enough are not seeing contact marks when pulled. Very simple, very basic.

 

[lincolnlocker]

It's a mechanical issue brought on by the regen. But the issue is not what these two thread starters describe. And it's not causing damage to the engine.

It does have to do with the valves, but not because of clearances or tolerances.


It took Ford a while to figure it out. Valve clearance would have been easy, that can be measured. If the pistons were slapping valves, that would have been easy because Ford would have seen the evidence of contact. But none of that is happening.

So they figured out it had to do with the regen at very specific loads and RPM's. But in order to change that they require lots of testing, and EPA approval once their testing is complete. Current ETA is 1Q 2016.

that sucks... i dont think its the pistons hitting the valves. more along the lines of the valve sticking slightly open then popping into place making it sound like it was hammering..

so there hasn't been any photos of the scored valves or guides to go along with this? ever?

live life full throttle

 

[CurtisF]

that sucks... i dont think its the pistons hitting the valves. more along the lines of the valve sticking slightly open then popping into place making it sound like it was hammering..

BINGO!!!!!!! We got someone on the right track now.

Now if tuning can change it and make that go away, what does that tell you about the valves sticking slightly open under VERY specific load and RPM's?

so there hasn't been any photos of the scored valves or guides to go along with this? ever?

I've been anxiously waiting for pictures of these and marks on pistons, etc. Nothing. :shrug:

 

[lincolnlocker]

BINGO!!!!!!! We got someone on the right track now.


I've been anxiously waiting for pictures of these and marks on pistons, etc. Nothing. :shrug:

valves sticking should have score marks regardless of whats causing it.. if the valves stick, the the lifters are beating on the push rods, push rods are beating on the rocker arms, rocker arms are beating on the valve head, but yet its causing no damage? i guess i dont see how its not.. lol

live life full throttle

 

[CurtisF]

valves sticking should have score marks regardless of whats causing it.. if the valves stick, the the lifters are beating on the push rods, push rods are beating on the rocker arms, rocker arms are beating on the valve head, but yet its causing no damage? i guess i dont see how its not.. lol

live life full throttle

"Sticking" might be the wrong term here.......

 

[lincolnlocker]

"Sticking" might be the wrong term here.......

how else would they be stuck open. timing thrown off?

live life full throttle

 

[Maryland dieselnick]

my failure analysis is dead on correct.

 

[drunk on diesel]

A clearance issue would also present itself when not in regen. Yet it doesn't happen. That's another gigantic hole in your story.

You can't concede the fact that a valve guide that is a little tight might work fine at normal temps, but when the exhaust valve stem expands during the extreme heat of regen that it might cause interference/drag?

 

[CurtisF]

You can't concede the fact that a valve guide that is a little tight might work fine at normal temps, but when the exhaust valve stem expands during the extreme heat of regen that it might cause interference/drag?

But what about other extreme heat scenarios and why doesn't it happen there?

Keep in mind this happens at very specific RPM's and engine loads. There are other operating ranges where you still get the same heat and expansion, but the issue is not present.

 

[CurtisF]

my failure analysis is dead on correct.

So where's the evidence of piston to valve contact that you have claimed numerous times?

If it was dead on correct, there would be 100% proof of contact.

 

[drunk on diesel]

But what about other extreme heat scenarios and why doesn't it happen there?

Keep in mind this happens at very specific RPM's and engine loads. There are other operating ranges where you still get the same heat and expansion, but the issue is not present.

what other extreme heat scenarios? at high RPM/load while towing?

I believe the theorem is that it's not a problem at higher RPM because the inertia of the valve is able to overcome the friction.

It's at lower RPM that it occurs, correct?