B code v.s. Hybrid

[juniort444e]

I think charles was saying that a higher ratio should be better. But im here to learn from you guys.

 

[JAP]

I think charles was saying that a higher ratio should be better. But im here to learn from you guys.

No. Basically what Charles is saying is that a higher ratio injector requires too much Rotella to be passed through the injector.

I see where both of the sides of the argument are.

 

[Hotrodtractor]

I want to hear what HRT says, mr. know it all. :bowfast:

Nah - I'm definitely not Mr. Know it all - but I am fairly entertained at the bantering between Lott and Chuck at the moment. LOL

Charles has a very valid point that he is trying to press - and I for the most part agree with him and that theory of operation. The B-code is less of a change from an A-code than going to a hybrid - making the tuning easier, and making it a fairly easily "balanced" injector out the gate for DD and race duties. I do like them - but I do fully believe that the hybrid has significant advantages. I actually have been gathering flow bench data to do a nice little write up about injection on here - but time has been sparse and the benches have been super busy. The information I intend on posting will give plenty of data and examples as to what each injector is capable of under certain circumstances.

For example - I already stated that down low in long PW, low ICP conditions the b-code flows more fuel all things being equal - but in low PW, high ICP conditions the hybrid flows more fuel all things being equal. In order to get the hybrid to flow the same fuel per time at the long PW, low ICP scenario - its just as simple as a bump in ICP.

Now to understand where Lott is coming from - the B-codes with say a 100% or a 200% tip are a pretty decent compromise between performance and stock characteristics without rocking the tuning world. The b-code truck in his scenario "runs" away from the hybrid truck is entirely tuning related - the factors that effect this are ICP, PW, and ICP ramp rates - if you are limited mechanically as to how fast you can ramp the ICP - then you might not be able to tune the hybrid to keep up (but on anything with "big" oil this should not be an issue at this level of discussion).

Unfortunately I don't have any data that directly correlates at this moment - so I need you to use your imagination on this graph:



Picture the b-codes injection volume on that graph to be a bit higher on the low ICP end of things and a bit lower on the high ICP end of things and dead even somewhere in the middle. That is how they compare in reality.

 

[juniort444e]

Nah - I'm definitely not Mr. Know it all - but I am fairly entertained at the bantering between Lott and Chuck at the moment. LOL
.

I agree, it is very intertaining, but someone dumb to the topic like me is struggling to grasp what chuck is getting at and what lott is getting at. So from here im just going to ask questions and opcorn:

And you know know it all, stop being so humble. :rockon: Im trying to get all of this so one day i can be where some of you are.

 

[juniort444e]

Ok, its starting to make some sense now. The picture helps. And let me know if i grasped this right,.....From the graph and your discription the b codes flow more down low on the graph but with flow less in the higher icp. It has more of a flatter graph for say.

IF that is correct then why wouldnt a hybrid out run a bcode up top, seeing as it is using less icp in general to flow relitively the same cc's

 

[TyCorr]

Ok, its starting to make some sense now. The picture helps. And let me know if i grasped this right,.....From the graph and your discription the b codes flow more down low on the graph but with flow less in the higher icp. It has more of a flatter graph for say.

IF that is correct then why wouldnt a hybrid out run a bcode up top, seeing as it is using less icp in general to flow relitively the same cc's

I think that is where the conversation is being baited into going!! Charles mentioned the hybrid being more willing to accept icp, or in other words, when icp is commanded via tuning the hybrid responds where as the b code is already 'working' and needs less manipulation in that area to perform whatever it will. Which is kinda confirmed on the low end by what HRT was saying about the b code flowing more at low icp but getting the hybrid to do the same or even more is as simple as tickling the icp a bit more.

This is a great thread, you were right!

 

[Powerstroke Racer]

Man....


Reeeeeeeal simple. You plainly stated that you think the B has a higher injection QUALITY. Now us simple folk look at the two injectors and notice that the only difference is that one has a higher hydraulic ratio. It doesn't take us too long to wonder then.... if the one that Mr Lott thinks has greater quality is also the one with the higher ratio, then it must be that he thinks that hydraulic ratio allows the injector to function better. Next thing you know we start to ponder on why then he doesn't run the READILY AVAILABLE A-codes with an even higher hydraulic ratio still???

And he responds with _______ as his reasoning for not running A-codes when they have a higher hydraulic ratio than B's.... but running B's because they have a higher hydraulic ratio than Hybrids....

Come again?


If the higher ratio allows the B's to have greater injection quality than Hybrids.... then why on earth does it not allow A's to have even higher injection quality than B's???

The question is super simple.


When you get done with that one feel free to then figure out why reverse hybrids wouldn't be the injection quality champions of the 7.3 Heui universe...

You are Mr Lott are on the same page. When he gets back on, be sure and ask him why he doesn't run A's or Reverse Hybrids. I mean, if B's are better than Hybrids, then why wouldn't A's be better than B's, and Reverse Hybrids the best of all???

Don't let up until you get an actual answer out of him. I'll check back in the morning.

Charles
I have tuned more combos of each than you could ever dream of tuning, much less doing something as simple as controlling ICP pressure:swordfight:

Like always you are so stuck on specific numbers that you fail to look outside that engineering boxed in brain of yours and see how the whole picture works, you keep talking about injection pressure only and while IP does have merit to a certain point you also need quantity and quality of fuel in a specific time frame. Your precious flow bench is not under a similar time constraint.

You tell me how a 6.0mm plunger can move the same amount of fuel as a 7.1mm plunger in the same amount of stroke?????

 

[Powerstroke Racer]

ill just copy your last post and insert it until i get an answer. you have it worded best.

Worded best is a perfect Charles post, bla bla bla that looks and reads great to those that don't know or understand how things really work.

Thanks Charles ,
Think I learned alot here in the past hour.

What exactly to did you learn, seriously???

AGREED

same question, in your own words please.

I think that is where the conversation is being baited into going!! Charles mentioned the hybrid being more willing to accept icp, or in other words, when icp is commanded via tuning the hybrid responds where as the b code is already 'working' and needs less manipulation in that area to perform whatever it will. Which is kinda confirmed on the low end by what HRT was saying about the b code flowing more at low icp but getting the hybrid to do the same or even more is as simple as tickling the icp a bit more.

This is a great thread, you were right!

Pressure is pressure volume is volume the PCM doesn't know nor care what injector is sitting in the heads, it simply does what it is told, again everything being equal how does a 6.0mm plunger move more fuel in the same amount of stroke as a 7.1 mm plunger, also keep In mind the B code has a slight advantage in the muscle department.

 

[juniort444e]

thats for an a code or reverse hybrid tho. A regular hybrid has the same plunger. Im confused at your arguements Lott.

I want info, not speculation and questioning other peoples intelligence. I understand each injector varies in plunger or intensifier piston size, but im trying to figure out what injector can do what when where and how. In an equal size that is.

 

[Powerstroke Racer]

thats for an a code or reverse hybrid tho. A regular hybrid has the same plunger. Im confused at your arguements Lott.

I want info, not speculation and questioning other peoples intelligence. I understand each injector varies in plunger or intensifier piston size, but im trying to figure out what injector can do what when where and how. In an equal size that is.

Speculation:doh:
hybrids rule, theres your info.

 

[juniort444e]

Yay, so i have the best thanks.

I say that because most of yours post are aimed at others and not actual info that i can learn from. I know chuck is doing the same but he has some info that i can read and help me understand the differences. Like HRT's post, i learned a thing or two. If your a genius with this, then shed some light on the topic and stop calling others out. Thanks

 

[juniort444e]

I want to know why one will work with a setup and one wont. And vica versa. Whats wrong with reverse hybrids. And so on.

 

[JAP]

Yay, so i have the best thanks.

I say that because most of yours post are aimed at others and not actual info that i can learn from. I know chuck is doing the same but he has some info that i can read and help me understand the differences. Like HRT's post, i learned a thing or two. If your a genius with this, then shed some light on the topic and stop calling others out. Thanks

Haha. That's what most people are lookin for anyway. Decision validation.

I have X so please tell me X is better.

David posted why he believes B codes are better.

To sum it up, quality > quantity.

HRT agrees to an extent. But doesn't feel that is totally available with a B code due to oil requirements.

Charles says hybrids are best because they flow the most on a flow bench.



My question is this...

Fuel only, conventional big oil and A code, B code and conventional hybrid with nozzles sized to play on the strenth of each. All else being the same.

Who puts down the most hp?

 

[juniort444e]

Yea, im not to worried about which one is better or not. I mean i am, but in their own way. I have hybrids and havnt seen their potential yet. Nor have i seen or have any experience with b codes. I want to build a setup like HRT for pulling so im trying to learn ahead of time so im not buying seven sets of turbos and injectors and nothing ever working. This knowledge will help me make a more rational decision later on.

Im understanding everyones views on each. Just confused still.

And i like your question too. But sometimes im not worried about HP as much as be effiecent in what i want it to do, sled pull, drag race, towing ect..

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

Interesting information...

Nothing that I really know a thing about, but am learning.

I couldnt agree more...ive learned more here than i thought possible

Haha. That's what most people are lookin for anyway. Decision validation.

I have X so please tell me X is better.

David posted why he believes B codes are better.

To sum it up, quality > quantity.

HRT agrees to an extent. But doesn't feel that is totally available with a B code due to oil requirements.

Charles says hybrids are best because they flow the most on a flow bench.



My question is this...

Fuel only, conventional big oil and A code, B code and conventional hybrid with nozzles sized to play on the strenth of each. All else being the same.

Who puts down the most hp?

Seems as though that question cant be answered, no one has really done the test closely enough to call it legit. Hell there arent even very many people that have experience with BOTH injectors in the SAME EXACT truck.

Lott stated that he has 2 trucks that are identical, but we all know each truck is different than the next so thats not a valid comparrison in my eyes. I want to dyno my truck, pull it off the dyno and swap in a set of 250/200 B codes and then dyno it again, thats about the only way its possible to see what everyone is trying to find out which is.... HP per CC.

Seems as though both are similar enough that if youve got one or the other, switching wouldnt yield enough results to matter to the casual DD guy.

I appreciate everyones input, this is why i started this thread!

 

[juniort444e]

The only problem with that bud, is tuning. You would have to have a general tune, or not specific to one and specific to one which wouldnt make it fair. Or have two different tunes with them dialed in on each injector.

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

The only problem with that bud, is tuning. You would have to have a general tune, or not specific to one and specific to one which wouldnt make it fair. Or have two different tunes with them dialed in on each injector.

which is no problem....

I have a chip burner, and ive got the cell # of multiple tuners so i could have the tunes in minutes.

 

[Hotrodtractor]

I want to know why one will work with a setup and one wont. And vica versa. Whats wrong with reverse hybrids. And so on.

Lets just start with one simple concept: Instantaneous Oil Flow (OK so maybe not that simple - LOL)

In order for two different injectors that are completely identical in every way other than the injection ratio (intensifier piston to plunger diameter) to flow the same amount of fuel in a given time - they have to have the exact same injection pressure - its the classic flow through an orifice fluid dynamics question. The orifice sizes are the same and the flow rates are the same - so that means the pressures must be the same. In order to get the same injection pressures between the two injectors - you might have to have a higher ICP on one injector than the other - at high ICP conditions this actually means the higher injection ratio injector needs to have the higher ICP than say the hybrid - SAY WHAT??????? Yep thats right - as the oil flow rate through that poppet increases (to take care of the higher injection ratio - it must flow more oil per time in order to flow the same fuel flow rate) the pressure drop across the poppet increases - Let me explain:

Suppose I have three injectors - an A-code (7:1), a b-code (6:1), and a hybrid (5:1). Suppose that each injector give me 200cc of fuel in say 2ms. Don't bother asking about the math right now - I don't have time to explain - these are hypothetical numbers and as such should be used as an example.
........... ICP Pressure drop across poppet Injection Pressure
A-code 3164. 1200.................................... 13,750
B-code 2891... 600...................................... 13,750
Hybrid 2800..... 50...................................... 13,750

On a side note: I hate the lack of formatting control I have on here.... WTF? It wants to drop all of the spaces that makes this post look nice and clean in my little "table"

 

[JAP]

I think it's a pretty universal understanding that B codes are a best all-around for DD and some competition. The sides start being taken when it comes to overall output and high horsepower.

 

[juniort444e]

Umm alittle off topic but just realized this is in the 94-97 section. Any way the OP could request this moved to a general 7.3 section. Just saying.

I honestly just want something thats going to perform all around, and put out the HP's when i need them, sledding dragging and so on.