injector capability, tuning stand point

[TyCorr]

Weazel was running ad's with 200% nozzles, twin hpops, and a 38r. Said.the truck.ran great.

 

[chris1978]

Is that detuned and 2000cc of water ? id be curious as to what hp level you tow in ?

That was in a PHP 40T file I estimate at ~275 RWHP. I ran it last summer before turning on the water and with my foot to the floor in 3rd gear doing 60MPH up some long 7-8% grades I couldn't break 1200*. With the just the first stage of water on I have a hard time breaking 1050*...

Got a new tow file that I can't wait to try out this summer...:evil

 

[under pressure]

Im now curious as to the icp on that nozzle, considering its not a ton of fuel per strok for a tow file, icp is probably fairly high im guessing

... pulled my 5er from Anchorage down through Canada, the grades up there are rediculous, They definetly go about road construction a little different up there !

 

[neverkickn]

Im now curious as to the icp on that nozzle, considering its not a ton of fuel per strok for a tow file, icp is probably fairly high im guessing

ICP is whatever the tuner tells it to be, and has nothing to do with an injector. That is unless of course we are talking about a pumps ability to hold comanded pressure with a larger injector.

 

[907DAVE]

The first 1000 miles of that trip is aggravating. I know the last few times I made that trip towing heavy I was on edge the entire time, what a relief it is when the roads are paved and flat.

 

[under pressure]

*has nothing to do with an injector. That is unless of course we are talking about a pumps ability to hold comanded pressure with a larger injector
...in reference to nozzle size, icp will matter, im looking to see the difference between icp and nozzle sizes. As in, what kind of pessure is required for a 200 over nozzle.


The first 1000 miles of that trip is aggravating. I know the last few times I made that trip towing heavy I was on edge the entire time, what a relief it is when the roads are paved and flat.
.... I was on edge all the was to th US. We left Anchorage Dec. 3, NOT the optimum time to be pulling through North !

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

I'm running a set of 200/200's...

this combo dynoed 548rhwp on a stock HPOP.

The 200% nozzle is really THE perfect nozzle for anything from 300rwhp to 600rwhp...but you do give up atomization at lower ICP pressures which can negatively impact fuel economy, and increase off-boost smoke.

We haven't seen anything worth a chit from the 80% or the 100% nozzles, quite honestly...the 30%'s are crisp and clean...and will knock down low to mid 400s with small turbo upgrades...without the fuel efficiency penalty of the larger nozzles...

from a technical standpoint, we use large(r) nozzles for engines that need to make power AT a higher rpm range...

a larger nozzle allows more fuel to be injected into the cylinder, more quickly...and with the ever shrinking 'mechanical' injection window (with increase in rpm), 'large' nozzles simply become a necessity for making power at high rpm.

we also tend to use smaller nozzles on more street/tow/fuel efficient oriented vehicles, unless the customer prefers a larger nozzle to support future plans & upgrades for the vehicle.

Looking at the engine combustion process, and considering things like, volume of fuel injected, piston speed (rpm), timing advance, and cylinder pressure...we have a chart that makes it quite simple to calculate maximum (usable) pulsewidth for any engine rpm.

Working backward from max/usable PW table, we're able to choose an injector (& nozzle) that works for 'a' particular customers application.

As with anything, there is compromise when you chose "A" over "B"...you're always giving something up...be that peak power, fuel efficiency, or peak operating rpm, among others...

turbo size, transmission style, driving habits (% of commute vs tow vs play) even vehicle weight and tire size should be considered when choosing not just an injector size, but a nozzle size.

Very well put Dave.

A 200% nozzle does great for what it is made for. But just isnt the best option for EVERY case. Just like it burns me to hear people recommend a set of hybrids because they are the sole answer to everyones needs. It is not just the quantity of fuel being injected, but the quality is also important.

 

[Charles]

What was the mpg that Brian pulled with the 400% nozzles in the DPC again? Wasn't it like 22mpg?

Everybody put that in your bigger nozzles are less efficient pipe and smoke it, lol.



If you push a nozzle to its MAX available time for a given power it will be INEFFICIENT. Such as asking a 30% to make 500rwhp. And there are points all in between where each nozzle overlaps another for a given power point in terms of which is most efficient.

Problem is, pretty well this whole discussion (IMO of course) is hopelessly skewed far, far away from the actual regions where these overlaps occur.

For instance, a 30% nozzle is more efficient than a 200% EDM at and below certain power levels, and a stock nozzle is more efficient than a 30% nozzle at and below another level. Problem is, some people in this thread seem to be of the notion that this is all happening much higher than it is. It's not, lol.

A 30% nozzle is probably more efficient than a stock nozzle from like 150 hp and on. Not 400 and on, even though a stock nozzle WILL make over 400rwhp, I've pulled over 420rwhp on them. But the stock nozzle was less efficient than the 30% nozzle all the way back at maaaaaaaybe 180rwhp...

The crossover from 30% to 200% is probably like 200hp IF THAT. I assure you that a 200EDM will run cooler and cleaner at 250rwhp than a 30%, even though a 30% will pull over 500 when pushed to the brink.

This is EXACTLY why you find what we call "performance" nozzles on STOCK DT466 and 530 engines... The Navistar engineers understood through extensive testing that those nozzles sizes were most efficient for those engines making 250 to 300 or so hp. And then we take them and pull mid 5's on fuel way back when and over 700 on spray.

The absolute MAX point of an injector should be oh so far away for a towing environment. What's so funny is that the sentiment that overshooting the nozzle size being for a performance oriented use and getting it as small as possible being for a towing use is perfectly BACKWARD, lol.

It is in fact the towing use that needs the oversized nozzle that can deliver the required fuel quantity well below its maxed out flow, and the performance usage that can accept a nozzle that is pushed to the brink, smoking heavily and running hot because for a short burst those things are okay.

We have that whole concept backward for the most part here...

I would say if you haven't towed the driveline out from under a superduty or two yet.... you aren't actually understanding this point as of yet.

A properly set up towing 7.3 will see the driveline of a sub 650 ford in HELL before it ever breaks 1200 degrees. If you even have to GLANCE at your EGT gauge while towing flat to the floor for minute upon minute, upon hour, then you're NOT understanding my point.

I'm just trying to clarify. These trucks towing around with say a 30% nozzle.... aren't even in the same zipcode in terms of capability with the exact same truck but with say a 200EDM nozzle that is tuned in to produce exactly the same wide open throttle EGT. EGT per EGT the 200% nozzled truck will pull so much more power.

In a tow truck the EGT gauge should only be used for tuning purposes, or for catching a failure, like a blown boot or something. If you actually need that gauge to keep your EGT in check while operating the truck then you have FAILED. And you undernozzled the truck for the intended power goal.

Period.

 

[Gearhead]

Without enough airflow, I have seen a 400% nozzle make less power than a 200% nozzle. If you are running a single you need a turbo that can move at least 100lb/min of airflow before you should think about going up to a 400%.

My truck with a modded h2e 71mm dropped 100HP with the 400% nozzles over the 200% it had before. No matter what I tried, I couldn't get the temps above 1200 degrees without nitrous because it was actually snuffing out the flame. Now with a GTX 4202, it is a completely different story at WOT.

 

[under pressure]

Charles, many good points. Now is all this info still driven by hpo. (example)
If a 30% nozzle only needs 2550 icp to make X amount of power.
Does a 200% need much more icp to make the same power ? due to the larger nozzle

My point is to find that happy meduim in nozzle size that runs on a standard hpop.
*Increase power, less smoke, lower egts with out taxing the hpop is all good if it can accomplish 400+ hp at the lowest possible price.

 

[Charles]

Without enough airflow, I have seen a 400% nozzle make less power than a 200% nozzle. If you are running a single you need a turbo that can move at least 100lb/min of airflow before you should think about going up to a 400%.

My truck with a modded h2e 71mm dropped 100HP with the 400% nozzles over the 200% it had before. No matter what I tried, I couldn't get the temps above 1200 degrees without nitrous because it was actually snuffing out the flame. Now with a GTX 4202, it is a completely different story at WOT.

What you describe above would only be valid if you had been injecting the same amount of fuel from each nozzle.

Even then, a 200 is actually more efficient than a 400 purely in construction. The actual rate of each nozzle had little if anything to do with your result.

The reality is, with equally produced nozzles, the smaller the charger, the faster the fuel must go in to make the same power given the air deficiency. This is precisely why nitrous oxide works so well with smallish nozzles. It chemically advances the burn rate to make up for the retarded injection rate.

 

[Charles]

Charles, many good points. Now is all this info still driven by hpo. (example)
If a 30% nozzle only needs 2550 icp to make X amount of power.
Does a 200% need much more icp to make the same power ? due to the larger nozzle

My point is to find that happy meduim in nozzle size that runs on a standard hpop.
*Increase power, less smoke, lower egts with out taxing the hpop is all good if it can accomplish 400+ hp at the lowest possible price.

Right now I'm driving around with 400/400's and nothing but a little old used 15* pump pulled off a wrecked OBS. The truck moves out and runs super clean making more power than 99% of the guys running a 30% nozzle smoking down 3 lanes of traffic.

As far as the 30% nozzle goes, I may be the first guy to run them. I literally cold-called Jim at EH nearly a decade ago and sorted out what to do to try something with a 7.3 nozzle. Dave at swamps sent him a couple sets of nozzles for me and the 30% nozzle came to be as far as I know. I have a lot of experience with them. And a 200EDM is their daddy, lol.

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

Sorry and you can argue this all you want, but your old EH nozzles are not the same as the 30% nozzles most everyone is using now. What's that apples to apples Reference people like to say.

I worked with Jim in the past also. Long ago. And I believe I was one of the first at least on this site to use these other than one other I know. These nozzles we have now are superior to any old EH nozzle.

 

[under pressure]

Charles, that's interesting to say the least.
How does a 15° pump run a set of 400s ? Whats the icp & pw on this set up.
Power out put ?
I'm trying to figure out how that would burn clean ?

Thanks for the input.

 

[lincolnlocker]

Charles, that's interesting to say the least.
How does a 15° pump run a set of 400s ? Whats the icp & pw on this set up.
Power out put ?
I'm trying to figure out how that would burn clean ?

Thanks for the input.

i think his compound turbos keep it clean plus he is not asking for a lot of pw and that means his icp keeps up... im guessing that if he was trying to run that size of injector to full peak power he would lose icp. from what i gather is he is tuned to keep the 15* pump in check and not for max hp...maybe, maybe not?

live life full throttle

 

[Gearhead]

What you describe above would only be valid if you had been injecting the same amount of fuel from each nozzle.

Even then, a 200 is actually more efficient than a 400 purely in construction. The actual rate of each nozzle had little if anything to do with your result.

The reality is, with equally produced nozzles, the smaller the charger, the faster the fuel must go in to make the same power given the air deficiency. This is precisely why nitrous oxide works so well with smallish nozzles. It chemically advances the burn rate to make up for the retarded injection rate.

I am not following..... i switched from a 200% to a 400% nozzle and saw a power decrease as well as a temp drop at WOT. I upped the airflow by 15-20lb/min and the power increased over what i was seeing with the 200% nozzle with the limited airflow.

 

[golfer]

I am not following..... i switched from a 200% to a 400% nozzle and saw a power decrease as well as a temp drop at WOT. I upped the airflow by 15-20lb/min and the power increased over what i was seeing with the 200% nozzle with the limited airflow.

were these the exact same injectors (bodies)..with ONLY the nozzles changed?

 

[Gearhead]

were these the exact same injectors (bodies)..with ONLY the nozzles changed?

Actually now that I think about it no. I had stroked b codes with the 200% nozzles and went to hybrids with the 400% nozzles. I changed only the turbo afterwards and picked up major power.

 

[Charles]

Sorry and you can argue this all you want, but your old EH nozzles are not the same as the 30% nozzles most everyone is using now. What's that apples to apples Reference people like to say.

I worked with Jim in the past also. Long ago. And I believe I was one of the first at least on this site to use these other than one other I know. These nozzles we have now are superior to any old EH nozzle.

They might not be that superior if you're hoping to break 500hp sometime soon when my old 30's from Jim did 544 on the Dynojet in 2007.

I was running them for years before I made that pull. All I had for reference at the time were cummins nozzles at EH.

The only nozzle options at that time were stock 466/530 stuff, and edm stuff with unacceptable failure rates.

My only point being, I'm good on the 30%, 100%, 200%, 300% and 400% nozzles on the same truck with specific tuning for each. There probably aren't many people who have tuned the piss out of such a wide variety of nozzles on the same truck. Maybe none. I was only providing weight to my comments. FWIW I've also run 444 and 466 nozzles on this truck. The only common nozzles I haven't run are the 80% and stock 530.

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just not seeing anybody with comparable field testing. In fact, all I see is the same old dragging ass lack of tuning for specific nozzle, so stick to the combos that line up with the tuning crap.

 

[TyCorr]

They might not be that superior if you're hoping to break 500hp sometime soon when my old 30's from Jim did 544 on the Dynojet in 2007.

I was running them for years before I made that pull. All I had for reference at the time were cummins nozzles at EH.

The only nozzle options at that time were stock 466/530 stuff, and edm stuff with unacceptable failure rates.

My only point being, I'm good on the 30%, 100%, 200%, 300% and 400% nozzles on the same truck with specific tuning for each. There probably aren't many people who have tuned the piss out of such a wide variety of nozzles on the same truck. Maybe none. I was only providing weight to my comments. FWIW I've also run 444 and 466 nozzles on this truck. The only common nozzles I haven't run are the 80% and stock 530.

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just not seeing anybody withwith comparable field testing. In fact, all I see is the same old dragging ass lack of tuning for specific nozzle, so stick to the combos that line up with the tuning crap.

My next.set will be 300/300 or a bigger.capacity injector but the 300% nozzle.