Let's discuss larger nozzles and idle quality

CurtisF

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I can not see tuners giving specific instructions on how to get these idles completely smooth as that is how they make their money and it was there time plugging away testing over and over again to figure out what works. Certainly not on a open public forum. They may point you in the right direction with posts like Matt has made to give you a path to start looking for things to try to start changing values. Maybe I am wrong but that just seems logical.

I'm not asking for their specific tunes, and I certainly don't expect them to give up anything special that makes their tuning unique.

It's just that tuning as a whole or in parts has been discussed at length here. We've got Bill explaining SOI, we've had Charles post up his theories, and others have added immensely to the discussion over the years. This is just another chapter in that saga. Lots of folks, including me, have moved to injectors with larger nozzles. They run fantastic, but there are tuning challenges to overcome. And I just haven't quite figured them all out yet. Basically a little bit of guidance will go a long way.
 

Cat_rebel

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I had a choppy/lopey warm idle on my 97 when I had my 275/200 hybrids in it. Really notice it more after you had been running it hard on the street & pulled in somewhere to park it. This was a quick vid I took last winter after driving it almost 40 miles on the highway. It has been even more lopey than this, oil is Valvoline Premium Blue 15w-40.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbfC0nqafB4


I just wish I could have gotten it live tuned, I think that's a big factor in getting the idle nailed down perfectly.
 

lincolnlocker

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TARM,

This is not a shot against you so please don't take it as such because I know you are simply stating a fact, but it's exactly that attitude why the 7.3L has lagged so far behind the Cummins and Duramax for so many years. It's this whole damn "secret squirrel" crap that goes on the hinders any real chance of improvements in the platform. You go on the Duramax forums and people are handing out tunes and configuration details like it was candy, but the Ford guys are often so tight-lipped you'd think they didn't even have a mouth.

I won't speak for any other tuners out there, but I have never had a problem explaining... in great detail... what it takes to make certain configurations work. I've built heavily modified base files and handed them straight to customers to let them do their own tuning. In fact, I still get calls form other tuners asking me for help or for files when they have difficulty with a specific configuration. I take great pleasure in the post I write about tuning, ECM functionality, or any other subject in which I can share my knowledge and experience. To not share it is, in my opinion, actually pretty selfish. Corey always said I'd be a great teacher because I love watching people learn, and if I had more patience I probably would teach.

This crap needs to stop or the 7.3L is going to finally outlive the brief resurgence we've seen over the last couple years. The reality is that the only people we're keeping secrets from is the general public. Pretty much anyone in the industry can look and learn from anyone else's tuning so nobody is really hiding anything anyway.

With that out of the way...



Jason's truck idles just as smooth warm as it does cold. There is more than enough resolution in the fuel PW and ICP tables to make even 350% nozzles idle smoothly, so the 200% nozzles aren't a problem. When we put a set of 400/350's (courtesy of Jim at Rosewood Diesel) in my truck, it idled like stock and ran like a striped-a$$ ape! The only real problem (aside from STUPID EGT's) was that serious PW and ICP table modifications become necessary to maintain a smooth stable idle. A slight haze was also had at light cruise, but to be honest I really didn't spend a lot of time tuning outside of the idle area on those injectors. They were strictly done as a proof of concept, and that was that you could put 400cc injectors in a BONE STOCK truck and still make them driveable. It worked and then we returned the injectors to Jim.

If you look at this video and watch near the end, you can hear how smooth the idle is even after romping on the truck a bit. This video is trimmed from a larger file, but I have more of it with hot idle (in park) if anyone really wants to see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL9drkh8Peg

In fact, here's the later part of that clip where I pulled onto the dyno. Idling for a good 30 seconds as I was talking to my buddy Foose. No haze, no rough idle. Just takes a little time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1f8iT5zltk
Take care.
how did you have the camera held on the side like that? if you did that on mine you wouldn't be able to read the amsoil sign in the background...
I had a choppy/lopey warm idle on my 97 when I had my 275/200 hybrids in it. Really notice it more after you had been running it hard on the street & pulled in somewhere to park it. This was a quick vid I took last winter after driving it almost 40 miles on the highway. It has been even more lopey than this, oil is Valvoline Premium Blue 15w-40.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbfC0nqafB4


I just wish I could have gotten it live tuned, I think that's a big factor in getting the idle nailed down perfectly.

this is closer to how mine idles
if you romp on it and let off it sounds like a BB with a large cam in it for a few seconds... every now and then i think its gonna die... she runs good though...
 
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Lowdown89

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I prolly should point out that my truck idled ok after I got it live tuned but something has changed on it and idles different now...


He has a gopro motorsports edition that has a suction cup mount that sticks like crazy.... I know when I got mine it says the suction cup is good up to 200mph I really have the urge to test that out I just don't know what in lol
 

ToMang07

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TARM

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I'm not asking for their specific tunes, and I certainly don't expect them to give up anything special that makes their tuning unique.

It's just that tuning as a whole or in parts has been discussed at length here. We've got Bill explaining SOI, we've had Charles post up his theories, and others have added immensely to the discussion over the years. This is just another chapter in that saga. Lots of folks, including me, have moved to injectors with larger nozzles. They run fantastic, but there are tuning challenges to overcome. And I just haven't quite figured them all out yet. Basically a little bit of guidance will go a long way.


I understand what you meant after I reread. It was just on first read it sounded tell me the tricks kind of thing. Which being totally honest there is zero harm in asking even though that was not what you were doing. Hell whats the worst that happens. You do not get info and are right where you are. Best someone teaches you something that opens your eyes to a new way of looking at it and your tuning takes a big jump forward.
 

TARM

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I had a choppy/lopey warm idle on my 97 when I had my 275/200 hybrids in it. Really notice it more after you had been running it hard on the street & pulled in somewhere to park it. This was a quick vid I took last winter after driving it almost 40 miles on the highway. It has been even more lopey than this, oil is Valvoline Premium Blue 15w-40.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbfC0nqafB4


I just wish I could have gotten it live tuned, I think that's a big factor in getting the idle nailed down perfectly.


Would it be oil aeration that is causing the choppy idle after hard runs etc? Seems like that could be a possible cause. Maybe a mechanical oil psi gauge on the res might show it from what I recall. IIRC is was Charles that used this to check for it and it showed up as the needle bouncing somewhat.
 

Power Hungry

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I'm not asking for their specific tunes, and I certainly don't expect them to give up anything special that makes their tuning unique.

It's just that tuning as a whole or in parts has been discussed at length here. We've got Bill explaining SOI, we've had Charles post up his theories, and others have added immensely to the discussion over the years. This is just another chapter in that saga. Lots of folks, including me, have moved to injectors with larger nozzles. They run fantastic, but there are tuning challenges to overcome. And I just haven't quite figured them all out yet. Basically a little bit of guidance will go a long way.

I understand what you meant after I reread. It was just on first read it sounded tell me the tricks kind of thing. Which being totally honest there is zero harm in asking even though that was not what you were doing. Hell whats the worst that happens. You do not get info and are right where you are. Best someone teaches you something that opens your eyes to a new way of looking at it and your tuning takes a big jump forward.

For reference, I never said I wouldn't help point someone in the right direction. All someone has to do is ask nicely. ;)
 

Cat_rebel

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Would it be oil aeration that is causing the choppy idle after hard runs etc? Seems like that could be a possible cause. Maybe a mechanical oil psi gauge on the res might show it from what I recall. IIRC is was Charles that used this to check for it and it showed up as the needle bouncing somewhat.

I never got around to hooking up a gauge to it but I would guess oil aeration was to blame. That was with a little 15° pump that always held psi for the tune Matt wrote for it.
 

Big Bore

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Curtis, you know what the answer is, you just don't want to admit it. Xtreme ICP! :poke:

I'll loan you the Termies and twin IPR setup if you want. LOL

On a serious note, you need an emulator to save time and effort between tweaks. I think that would help you zero in on the problem/solution quicker and easier.
 

Big Bore

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When we put a set of 400/350's (courtesy of Jim at Rosewood Diesel) in my truck, it idled like stock and ran like a striped-a$$ ape! The only real problem (aside from STUPID EGT's)

What was the cause of the high EGT's and under what conditions were they high? Was it just under hard throttle and caused by the massive amounts of fuel and small turbo, or was it across the board?
 

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