manual or auto

[stroker2]

And I realize that the ZF has poor cooling capacity. Hence the fact that they are no longer offered in a superduty. I guess if you wanted to build a one-off pump assembly to move the needed volume, have a remote oil reservoir, oil thermostat housing and large cooler in addition to the OEM cooler then sure, you could get the temps down..... but you couldn't make the torque capacity go up. It would still hammer the input shaft bearing out of it, it just wouldn't scorch the fluid anymore. Otherwise Ford would have increased the flow, added fluid capacity and a larger cooler themselves instead of throwing the whole thing in the trash where it belonged.

I thought you earlier stated that your problem was just a heating problem? Didnt realize the input shaft bearing was going out on you. Seems like the input bearings would get hammered on an auto with higher power levels as well

 

[7.3 Cowboy]

If the autos are so much better why dont all the real class 8 trucks come with autos instead of a manual? I have owned 2 zf-6 trucks and tow heavy alot and have never "melted" one down. My dad has owned 4 zf-6 trucks that usuauly wieghed 36-40,000going atleast hundred miles at a time and never melted one down he probaly had a combined milage of 400,000ish miles on those four trucks with no problems. How many miles does you 550 have on it to have three zf-6s in it charles?

 

[Charles]

I thought you earlier stated that your problem was just a heating problem? Didnt realize the input shaft bearing was going out on you. Seems like the input bearings would get hammered on an auto with higher power levels as well

The problem is sustained torque. The amount of power the ZF can take in a burst with smooth delivery and no shocking is above what any of us will probably ever produce.

However, if you load one down, and hold it there for a couple hours they just can't shed the energy. I have never taken one out of a truck I towed heavy with that the input shaft bearing wasn't loose as hell, fluid scorched and unfortunately, often times popping out of 4th and 5th gears under power.

The auto is just more capable of sustained torque input in my experience. The ZF is only actually rated for a max of 650ft/lbs at the crank fwiw...

Hence the fact that later versions of the superduty were detuned with the ZF vs the auto option.

 

[Charles]

If the autos are so much better why dont all the real class 8 trucks come with autos instead of a manual?

When you stick a truck in gear and it stays there for 8 hours, an auto is wasted money, and unnecessary complexity if the manual options can shed the heat and handle the torque.

A better question would be why do hardly any concrete trucks, garbage trucks, delivery trucks, roll-off trucks or dumptrucks get run manuals anymore? Because in situations where you're actually going to be running up and down through the gears, the manuals are slow, burn up fuel and the driver's like to drop shafts, eat up clutches and blow through shift forks.

I have owned 2 zf-6 trucks and tow heavy alot and have never "melted" one down. My dad has owned 4 zf-6 trucks that usuauly wieghed 36-40,000going atleast hundred miles at a time and never melted one down he probaly had a combined milage of 400,000ish miles on those four trucks with no problems.

You're not putting down much power. I killed my first ZF6 (from heat) in my F-250 at a dyno verified 305rwhp uncorrected Dynojet. Basically flat to the floor with a huge wind load behind me for ~2.5 hours was enough. By the time I finished the return trip it was popping out of 4th gear under power. Pulled the plug and the fluid was black. It was only probably 10,000 miles old.

For reference, that was a pretty well constant 28psi of boost. Unless you're seeing 28lbs steady-state on a single charger, then you aren't putting the power down, and your load is not that hard to pull. Sometimes heavy loads are easy to pull if the aero is slick. Bales of hay and Pickups on 50 inch tires drag a lot of air, and require much more power lb per lb.

Trust me, I would much rather not have the little wimps falling out from under trucks, but unfortunately they can't hang.

Fwiw, I have made that same trip in my 250 at 40+lbs continuous boost, consuming nearly 20 gallons of water through the injection system to keep EGT in check and my 4R100 gave not one ***...

How many miles does you 550 have on it to have three zf-6s in it charles?

None. Like 255. It had a reman in it when we got it, and I've melted one ZF in it, hopefully the last. I put an additional cooler on it in conjunction with the OEM cooler this past time. I also dropped my interstate speeds considerably. Amazingly, I have to tow SLOWER with the 550 than my 250 so that I don't piss off the fragile little transmission. I've only made a couple hay trips with it and even at slower speed and with the added cooler it already sounds like ground up marbles at low speed because the input bearing is dying.

I just don't have the patience to drive like a total fag on the interstate. If the motor wants to rip, I like to let the big dog eat. Not drive like a puss because my poor little trans might get upset if I break the speed limit.

 

[7.3 Cowboy]

Mine have had a 38r php chip intake exhaust etc. it's puttin down some pOwer but not melt it down power I guess. My dads did alotta city driving after a couple hrs on the interstate at 40,000 ish and never melted but I guess a stock truck doesn't have the power to melt one down. My 350 6spd would put tow my dad 450 auto both on stock with just exhaust and intakes. I see alotta manual dump and Crete trucks. I just let my motor rip and don't drive like a gag down the interstate with no problem on my zf-6 yet

 

[TooSlow]

My zf-6 does fine behind my 6.4, my other zf-6 does fine behind my 6.0 in my f450 service truck, and my zf-5 does fine behind my 7.3 in my flat bed. I see one common denominator here. CHARLES

 

[Charles]

My zf-6 does fine behind my 6.4, my other zf-6 does fine behind my 6.0 in my f450 service truck, and my zf-5 does fine behind my 7.3 in my flat bed. I see one common denominator here. CHARLES

A wheelbarrow does fine as long as you don't mind being agonizingly slow and knowing you can't really do much.

I'd rather just use a skid-steer and move the dirt in half the time and half the effort.


In other words, if you don't have any issues with a ZF6, then you don't expect much from a trans, don't mind driving a slow ass truck and don't tow hard. If you think you do tow hard, then redirect yourself back to the simple fact that you haven't melted the trans yet.... hence.... you don't tow hard...

This is also why as the power levels kept climbing through the lifespan of the ZF6 in the superduty you saw trucks getting derated with the ZF6 vs the auto and why you don't see a ZF6 behind the 400hp 6.7 at all. That would have went over well, lol.

 

[JoeDaddy]

To answer your questions Charles.

Why would anyone want a manual?
Some of us like it. Just that, simple pleasure. I have both as well and thoroughly enjoy taking my 5spd 7.3 for a little country cruise. Its a visceral mechanical pleasure.

Why don't transmission makers cause the TC to stay locked?
You've never driven on ice/packed snow I'm guessing.

I do enjoy all three forms though. Along with the auto and stick I also drive a full manual Allison auto. It has its good and bad traits just like the others. I guess it just comes down to what we prefer.

 

[Charles]

To answer your questions Charles.

Why would anyone want a manual?
Some of us like it. Just that, simple pleasure. I have both as well and thoroughly enjoy taking my 5spd 7.3 for a little country cruise. Its a visceral mechanical pleasure.

When you compare the ZF to a full auto that you don't select the shifts for... then I would never choose the 4R myself. However, when you fully select the shifts of the 4R, that's when you can make an actual comparison.

Why don't transmission makers cause the TC to stay locked?
You've never driven on ice/packed snow I'm guessing.

So I guess you would like your ZF to force the clutch to unlock every time you hit the brakes in the manual truck too? Nope... you sure wouldn't, lol.

I do enjoy all three forms though. Along with the auto and stick I also drive a full manual Allison auto. It has its good and bad traits just like the others. I guess it just comes down to what we prefer.

Not really. You can prefer a manual all you want, but you won't buy one from Ford in a diesel superduty anymore because they are pointless. They are ordered less and less every day in bigger trucks too. Midsize trucks (garbage, moving, delivery, concrete, container) almost never get ordered with a manual anymore.

And as long as hard performance values are ignored, you can pretend it's preferential. Higher torque capacity, higher power capacity, higher starting output torque, greater ratio range, no break in applied power on a shift, no loss of boost on a shift, can be run full manual, or full auto, or any combination of the two, can be controlled via pushbutton, remote, bump shifter, coleslaw maker, or anything else you want to control it.

The only reason they aren't used exclusively in all applications is price, and complexity that might confuse some people too much. The actual performance is higher.

It's like comparing manual boost control vs electronic boost control. Electronic performs better in all cases, but manual is dirt cheap, and dumb asses can work on it without hurting their heads too much.

 

[JoeDaddy]

There's no question that the auto with driver input control is the best to meet all needs if there could only be one. I think you're missing my point on performance though. Performance being the rate at which something performs is objective. Take a HD V-twin. Do you want a smooth efficient quite one or one that's a bit rich and long in cam duration to get that "Harley Idle"? One might opt for the lower in performance to get the bike that performs the way they prefer.

As to the lock-up I and every other professional driver out here with any real experience reach for the clutch before the brake in bad weather for the very same reason Id prefer my TC to unlock when brakes are applied as a rule.

BTW Im not being argumentative, just offering my perspective.
Sometimes I close my eyes and remember an old slant 6 D100 and the way it would pull a turn in 4th without a shudder. I guess Im old enough to long for outdated unconventional ways. I am truly sad that the stick is dead. Seems like a right of passage has died along with it. The standard transmission is somehow poetic in my mind.

 

[TooSlow]

A wheelbarrow does fine as long as you don't mind being agonizingly slow and knowing you can't really do much.

I'd rather just use a skid-steer and move the dirt in half the time and half the effort.


In other words, if you don't have any issues with a ZF6, then you don't expect much from a trans, don't mind driving a slow ass truck and don't tow hard. If you think you do tow hard, then redirect yourself back to the simple fact that you haven't melted the trans yet.... hence.... you don't tow hard...

This is also why as the power levels kept climbing through the lifespan of the ZF6 in the superduty you saw trucks getting derated with the ZF6 vs the auto and why you don't see a ZF6 behind the 400hp 6.7 at all. That would have went over well, lol.

Lol I'm sorry I didn't buy a 8500 pound truck to race. It does pull my race car though, which also has a standard transmission which is the fastest option in the class. And my 6.4 has the same power rating as an auto I'm pretty sure. Id also be willing to bet it puts down more than your trans eating 7.3. I've also had a 4r behind a v10 and you couldn't pay me to drive that pos again

 

[Charles]

Lol I'm sorry I didn't buy a 8500 pound truck to race. It does pull my race car though, which also has a standard transmission which is the fastest option in the class. And my 6.4 has the same power rating as an auto I'm pretty sure. Id also be willing to bet it puts down more than your trans eating 7.3. I've also had a 4r behind a v10 and you couldn't pay me to drive that pos again

If you actually bought that truck to work and work hard, then the ZF would be melted by now at least once if it makes the power you think it does and you actually used it.

The proof is in the pudding. If you made the power you think you do, and needed a truck to work like you seem to think you do, you would have ended at least one ZF by now. Yet you haven't. The reality is that you don't work that trans very hard and don't need much from your truck, else you would have toasted that pos trans already.

You can make 2000hp and probably put it down without breaking the trans if you rolled in the power gently. But stick it in the middle of a mere 300 or so hp and leave it there for a couple hours and you just killed a ZF.

It's like a guy that thinks he's making a bazillion horsepower and you ask him what clutch he's running and he says stock.... lol. You don't need to know anything else to know he's not making power, lol. You haven't ever killed a ZF trans, so guess what brother.... you haven't ever put 300+ through one for any length of time...

Something you can do all day with a 4R btw.

 

[Charles]

There's no question that the auto with driver input control is the best to meet all needs if there could only be one. I think you're missing my point on performance though. Performance being the rate at which something performs is objective. Take a HD V-twin. Do you want a smooth efficient quite one or one that's a bit rich and long in cam duration to get that "Harley Idle"? One might opt for the lower in performance to get the bike that performs the way they prefer.

As to the lock-up I and every other professional driver out here with any real experience reach for the clutch before the brake in bad weather for the very same reason Id prefer my TC to unlock when brakes are applied as a rule.

BTW Im not being argumentative, just offering my perspective.
Sometimes I close my eyes and remember an old slant 6 D100 and the way it would pull a turn in 4th without a shudder. I guess Im old enough to long for outdated unconventional ways. I am truly sad that the stick is dead. Seems like a right of passage has died along with it. The standard transmission is somehow poetic in my mind.

Performance metrics have numerical values. What NUMBER do you assign to that "harley idle" you describe there? You don't.... because that is not performance, it's bullsh*t, aka preference.

What I described was performance. Temperature in degrees, torque capacity in lb/ft, power capacity in HP, ratio range in numerical values, starting output torque in lb/ft, so on and so forth.

I'm talking about actual performance aspects and you're talking preference. Like saying blue trucks perform better than green ones... in other words, bullsh*t. Whereas I'm talking in terms of trucks with ____ engines vs trucks with _____ engines, paint color be damned.

A distant second to that point would be full-manual control gaining back nearly all of the preferential aspects ANYWAY, lol. And once you drove a superduty with decent power and a full-manual 4R for about 5 minutes you'd have a whole list of preferential aspects that would make you spit at a ZF that you don't even KNOW you like yet!!!

True story.

LOL

 

[TooSlow]

If you actually bought that truck to work and work hard, then the ZF would be melted by now at least once if it makes the power you think it does and you actually used it.

The proof is in the pudding. If you made the power you think you do, and needed a truck to work like you seem to think you do, you would have ended at least one ZF by now. Yet you haven't. The reality is that you don't work that trans very hard and don't need much from your truck, else you would have toasted that pos trans already.

You can make 2000hp and probably put it down without breaking the trans if you rolled in the power gently. But stick it in the middle of a mere 300 or so hp and leave it there for a couple hours and you just killed a ZF.

It's like a guy that thinks he's making a bazillion horsepower and you ask him what clutch he's running and he says stock.... lol. You don't need to know anything else to know he's not making power, lol. You haven't ever killed a ZF trans, so guess what brother.... you haven't ever put 300+ through one for any length of time...

Something you can do all day with a 4R btw.

I never said I work the truck to death. I bought a 3/4 ton for a reason. If I planned on grossing 30,000 I would have gotten a bigger truck. I have grossed about 22,000 on several occasions many for more than several hours. But that's about the capacity of the truck. Honestly the rear axle was probably over loaded with that. The engine and trans performed flawlessly though might I add. 75mph the whole way and never had to drop out of high gear. I also gross 18,000 regularly with my race trailer. Just because you like your $4000 4r, and I'm sure it's nice, doesn't mean that's the end all be all of transmissions.

Also 300rwhp is nothing for a 6.4 and yes I have a stock clutch. Never been on a dyno but I'm sure it would make 300 with the 80hp tune if it can be done through a stock slush box.

 

[7.3 Cowboy]

Performance metrics have numerical values. What NUMBER do you assign to that "harley idle" you describe there? You don't.... because that is not performance, it's bullsh*t, aka preference.

What I described was performance. Temperature in degrees, torque capacity in lb/ft, power capacity in HP, ratio range in numerical values, starting output torque in lb/ft, so on and so forth.

I'm talking about actual performance aspects and you're talking preference. Like saying blue trucks perform better than green ones... in other words, bullsh*t. Whereas I'm talking in terms of trucks with ____ engines vs trucks with _____ engines, paint color be damned.

A distant second to that point would be full-manual control gaining back nearly all of the preferential aspects ANYWAY, lol. And once you drove a superduty with decent power and a full-manual 4R for about 5 minutes you'd have a whole list of preferential aspects that would make you spit at a ZF that you don't even KNOW you like yet!!!

True story.

LOL

Maybe you don't know how to drive your zf-6 you seem to be the only one with any trouble out of them.

 

[stroker2]

In other words, if you don't have any issues with a ZF6, then you don't expect much from a trans, don't mind driving a slow ass truck and don't tow hard. If you think you do tow hard, then redirect yourself back to the simple fact that you haven't melted the trans yet.... hence.... you don't tow hard...

Ridiculous accusation and reasoning. If your 4r is still together then you must not tow hard or use your truck either in that case

This is also why as the power levels kept climbing through the lifespan of the ZF6 in the superduty you saw trucks getting derated with the ZF6 vs the auto and why you don't see a ZF6 behind the 400hp 6.7 at all. That would have went over well, lol.

Pretty sure they were mostly rated higher for the manual trans trucks, and some years were the same as the autos. And they didnt stop putting ZF's in truck due to your stated lack of durability. It was more along the lines of customers not ordering them as much therefore not worth it to make the expense of creating that option for trucks any longer

Not really. You can prefer a manual all you want, but you won't buy one from Ford in a diesel superduty anymore because they are pointless. They are ordered less and less every day in bigger trucks too. Midsize trucks (garbage, moving, delivery, concrete, container) almost never get ordered with a manual anymore.

Exactly. They are being less and less preferred and not necessarily because they are worse. All the lighter duty trucks get ordered with the autos because they deliver around town and do a LOT of stop and go. Except many concrete trucks are still being ordered with the eaton fuller manuals just like the heavier spec tractors becuase they have more weight to handle, less in-town driving, and less stop and go such as garbage, moving, container trucks.

The only reason they aren't used exclusively in all applications is price, and complexity that might confuse some people too much. The actual performance is higher.

^^^thats seriously the reason eh? Price may be a factor here but "complexity that may confuse some people too much?" I thought autos were easier, at least it seems thats one thing you have been trying to explain to everyone in this thread

It's like comparing manual boost control vs electronic boost control. Electronic performs better in all cases, but manual is dirt cheap, and dumb asses can work on it without hurting their heads too much.

You have an answer for everything dont ya? Pretty sure TooSlow was just stating his experience with the ZF's and stating that he sees one exception in this thread being YOU. Not that he's poking at you.

 

[Buffalo444]

So Charles, gotta ask... how long will a stock or mostly stock (shift kit/vb and tc) last with a pcs???

sent from the passenger seats of the goose.

 

[JoeDaddy]

Performance metrics have numerical values. What NUMBER do you assign to that "harley idle" you describe there? You don't.... because that is not performance, it's bullsh*t, aka preference.

What I described was performance. Temperature in degrees, torque capacity in lb/ft, power capacity in HP, ratio range in numerical values, starting output torque in lb/ft, so on and so forth.

I'm talking about actual performance aspects and you're talking preference. Like saying blue trucks perform better than green ones... in other words, bullsh*t. Whereas I'm talking in terms of trucks with ____ engines vs trucks with _____ engines, paint color be damned.

A distant second to that point would be full-manual control gaining back nearly all of the preferential aspects ANYWAY, lol. And once you drove a superduty with decent power and a full-manual 4R for about 5 minutes you'd have a whole list of preferential aspects that would make you spit at a ZF that you don't even KNOW you like yet!!!

True story.

LOL

I enjoy driving, been doing it for a long time. You're definition of performance is PEAK performance. I live on a curvy stretch of asphalt the car clubs love to throw their machines into as do I. I accept that we disagree on the viability of the stick but you are wise enough to see how driving a flappy paddle auto through those hills and turns isn't nearly as fun as a true stick and clutch.

Color is visual, its a preference. That's nowhere the same choice as auto and stick. While it is a preference its based on how the vehicles perform.


Your move

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/13828/burnout.gif

 

[7.3powerstroke00]

To each there own! It's funny I keep seeing people talk about how slow a standard transmission truck is... Most people that buy a standard don't really give a crap how fast it will run in the 1/4! For a lot of people driving on ranches and in fields all day long and hardly ever getting up to highway speeds, a standard is better for the ability to idle along... They both have there purpose it's just a matter of preference IMO! Me ill stick to rowing gears as long as I can!

 

[Charles]

I never said I work the truck to death. I bought a 3/4 ton for a reason. If I planned on grossing 30,000 I would have gotten a bigger truck. I have grossed about 22,000 on several occasions many for more than several hours. But that's about the capacity of the truck. Honestly the rear axle was probably over loaded with that. The engine and trans performed flawlessly though might I add. 75mph the whole way and never had to drop out of high gear. I also gross 18,000 regularly with my race trailer. Just because you like your $4000 4r, and I'm sure it's nice, doesn't mean that's the end all be all of transmissions.

Also 300rwhp is nothing for a 6.4 and yes I have a stock clutch. Never been on a dyno but I'm sure it would make 300 with the 80hp tune if it can be done through a stock slush box.

You could load a truck and trailer to 80,000 gross and not use 50hp if you tooled along at 20mph...

The gross weight PLUS your speed and incline are what determine your power requirement, holding friction constant.

Again..... the fact that you haven't melted the pos down is proof positive that you haven't put power through it for an extended period.... OR..... ford upped the cooling capacity of the oil circuit on the newer trucks like I did on our 550, although I haven't proven whether or not this will make it live yet. Hay season has yet to come on the new trans and cooler combo.