modded hpfp?

powerstroked08 · Feb 1, 2014

Ok so what does II do that ***s up the dragon fire pumps? I mean some people have great luck with them. But most have bad luck and its not worth risking a hung injector and a blown engine for the gain on a single pump. And another question is does anybody make one that will last. If so who(I know elite used to but doesn't anymore for some reason) and if nobody does then why not? Why can a cp3 be modded so much more reliably than the K16? I'm no expert on this but I'd love to learn all about it. Thanks guys!

Stroked777 · Feb 1, 2014

In curious as well to what fails on them

GSchretter · Feb 1, 2014

I've thought about this several times.

Whoever does I would be one of the first to buy one.

Just about everything has some type of aftermarket but not the HPFP.

I can understand the two pumps for big HP but what about an add-on that you take out the old one and only use the second pump as a primary so when it fails your just swap it out .

I can't find anything like this and it just seems stupid.

Of course I'm no aftermarket 6.4 pro so there might be one out there.

If so please inform me as you got a sale!

bigrpowr · Feb 1, 2014

i believe the biggest problem, is the duty cycle. say they stroke the pump to flow 50% more actual , well its going to be working its ass off. the whole reliability standpoint of dual fuelers is 2 pumps splitting the load. neither ever works its ass off. now lets say they use brand new pumps and get the tolerances acbsolutely perfect, then the pump should live a decent life if it isnt over worked, but you cant get a new pump anymore anyway.

strokersmoker · Feb 1, 2014

I read a technical article in Diesel power iirc. It was on the subject of "stroker" cp3 pumps in the duramax and the Dodge. I am aware the 6.4 has a k16 pump, but I believe the operation is similar.
The article stated that the reground cam and over sized plungers came straight from Bosch and were reliable. The part that was difficult to source were the suction valves. On the cp4 pumps Bosch labels them Intake re-uptake inhibit valves or something very strange.
From what I read the purpose of the valves is very similar to an intake valve in our diesel engines. The valves are sized for a standard pump and at high duty levels the valves erode and leak. Bosch motorsports will source larger valves but the cost is $3000 just to get the part number IF a part is available. Any production would be on a contract basis.

Reference's used:
Article in Diesel Power mag
Bosch Motosports dealer info application
Parts breakdown for cp3/cp4 drawing's found by searching on google for said drawings.

So to answer the op's question I am not sure II does anything to make them fail, but it is more the parts required to make them live longer are not readily available.
I have never taken a k16 or an II pump apart and this reply is purely speculation based on information I found on the internet.

B585Ford · Feb 2, 2014

I read a number of different theories on this and why modded CP3s fail. For the K16, it seems like quality is the issue with IIs. I am not sure if CP3s work the exact same way, but with them, it seemed like the most widely accepted theory was the ceramic ball that is suppose to seal the cylinder from getting more fuel than it can handle can get damaged and doesn't go into position correctly. Since there is nothing to stop the plunger, it makes contact which results in grenading everthing. My understanding of this is that as Mike was saying, making the pump work its ass off, makes this more likely to occur.
I WISH there was a single pump option for the 6.4. With as big of demand as there would be, I imagine if it was simple fix, it would have been done a long time ago. I know Elite had worked on a pump capable of sustaining 30%s (maybe more) but it has been over a year ago and still nothing has been released so that also makes me think it must be complicated. I wish Shane (I believe he is with Wicked Diesel now) would team up with Elite and try to make this happen.

Jeff@Spartan · Feb 2, 2014

I think a K16 that's modded to say 25-30% over would probably sell pretty well, assuming it would be enough for the guys running 15-30% over nozzles and be reliable at the same time. The biggest selling point on something like that is the fact that a person wouldn't have to spend the money on a dual pump kit to run a "smaller" nozzle.

But as mentioned already, used pumps and remans will have to be modded with no new pumps being made.

Stroked777 · Feb 2, 2014

i can tell you the first company to make a reliable pump that could handle 30% nozzles will make a killing

powerstroked08 · Feb 2, 2014

Stroked777 said:
i can tell you the first company to make a reliable pump that could handle 30% nozzles will make a killing

I agree! Its killing us in the work stock scene!

Stroked777 · Feb 2, 2014

powerstroked08 said:
I agree! Its killing us in the work stock scene!

im not saying dual fuelers is a good set up but for people not looking to make over 1000hp i think a modded hpfp would be awesome and again you could run work stock classes

loanranger09 · Feb 2, 2014

it would completely change my build plans if i could get a reliable HPFP to run 30% thats for sure. 6.4 would be pretty darn hard to touch in a work stock class if this would happen

6.4strokin · Feb 2, 2014

I got a dragonfire pump for workstock hopefully it's reliable. All I can say is duramax go bye bye I'm workstock lol

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Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto · Feb 2, 2014

The only thing they modify is the stroke. The crankshaft of the pump is welded and offset ground. The problem is sometimes it worked, others the bearings on the crankshaft didn't hold and crapped out.

I did a lot of pump disassembly and research of some failed stock and dragonfires. I came up was that to make a completely new crank outta billet and would be costly enough that it wouldn't be worth it.

For us to make a reliable modded single pump it would have been over 3k... Just go duals....

powerstroked08 · Feb 2, 2014

Sledpull said:
The only thing they modify is the stroke. The crankshaft of the pump is welded and offset ground. The problem is sometimes it worked, others the bearings on the crankshaft didn't hold and crapped out.

I did a lot of pump disassembly and research of some failed stock and dragonfires. I came up was that to make a completely new crank outta billet and would be costly enough that it wouldn't be worth it.

For us to make a reliable modded single pump it would have been over 3k... Just go duals....

So basically if there was better bearings and a stronger crank this could work. Correct. And probably one day I'll be going duals. And I'm going to get them from some guy named Morgan, I guess he makes a so so kit.

But I would love to be a top contender in workstock is all.

weekendwarriorfsw32 · Feb 2, 2014

Would that 3k have been start up on doing one test one or once you started moving quantity and selling them and the price would be at 3k?

Sledpull said:
The only thing they modify is the stroke. The crankshaft of the pump is welded and offset ground. The problem is sometimes it worked, others the bearings on the crankshaft didn't hold and crapped out.

I did a lot of pump disassembly and research of some failed stock and dragonfires. I came up was that to make a completely new crank outta billet and would be costly enough that it wouldn't be worth it.

For us to make a reliable modded single pump it would have been over 3k... Just go duals....

Stroked777 · Feb 2, 2014

to alot of people that 3k would be worth it to stay in the work stock class

powerstroked08 · Feb 2, 2014

Stroked777 said:
to alot of people that 3k would be worth it to stay in the work stock class

Yes I think there would be quite a few people. Its that or you have to go full open at some pulls.

webb06 · Feb 2, 2014

Stroked777 said:
to alot of people that 3k would be worth it to stay in the work stock class

Kinda what I was thinking

6.4strokin · Feb 2, 2014

Well Morgan aka sledpull what do you think since you know a lot about this.

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Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto · Feb 2, 2014

Long and short. It would require a lot of up-front. And I know all about workstock. But it just didn't make enough dollars and sense to go ahead with it. It could be done one off. But it may cost 4-5k.

Believe me if I though it would be a good seller and reliable I would do it.

Instead I released a dual fueler kit......