Nitrous on non built motors?

bigrpowr

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If you're putting anything with duel fuelers stay away from low end torque and nitrous.

next question would be why ? because dual fuelers typically add 100hp . if you have a decent turbo setup with dual fuelers and good tuning .. you're at 650 + .. and that's plenty to have fun with on a stock motor .
 

amplituderacing

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If your goal is 675-700 hp and you're in the financial position to build a motor, I'd probably say use your money to just step up turbo size and get a dual fueler to reach that hp goal. You can do pretty close to what you want with a 66mm turbo and dual fueler.

A simple rule to remember when considering more air vs. just adding nitrous is boost is soft and nitrous is hard. When increasing boost in the cylinder, it's more of a cushioned power adder. When introducing nitrous, the effects are more brutal.
100% in support of this.

Also consider that, when I build motors specifically for nitrous, they're not built the same way. Different bearing material for the brutality of the hits, different ring gaps, change when the boost comes in ...

You're much, much better off using 1 type of fuel in a daily driver. Stick to diesel, it's good for 700hp.

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Wayne

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To add insight to a few comments, here are some of my experiences with my 6.4 on spray, which carry over in principle.

#1- Nitrous can, and does drop EGT's ......if you spray it hard enough. Most people only see EGT increases because they start out with way too much fuel, and aren't brave/ capable enough to spray it hard enough to drop EGT's. If you're already running hot, and have extra fuel, adding some nitrous will jack up your EGT's. If you want to lower the temp, you have to spray it hard enough to clean up all the smoke, then spray it even harder until the temp drops to a happy place. I recommend not letting it cool below 1200 or so at WOT, because you can cool the combustion to the point where I suspect
BAD things can happen with backfires & stuff. (only speculation on dropping the temp too far)

How much do you actually need to drop EGT's? it's variable. You'll have to experiment, but doing so on stock rods, as mentioned, could spell disaster. On my 6.4 with twin pumps, and baby injector nozzles (15% over stock), I ran it on the race tune on the dyno. Fuel only corrected at Denver elevation the truck put down 700 to the wheels, pegging my 1780* pyro by the end of the short run. Right after that run, I let it cool, got the bottle temp just right, and sprayed everything it had running two .136" jets through .120" solenoids at 100% duty cycle. Corrected rwhp shot clear up to over 1200, and pegged the 2000 lb/ft torque curve. EGT's were 1350 ish and stayed there. That's roughly a 500 hp gain on that much nitrous. Most people aren't willing to spray their stuff hard enough for those gains though as things need to be built & properly set up to handle it. If I had any more nitrous to throw at it I would have, just to see, but that maxed out the Nitrous Express NXD 4000, progressively controlled kit I had at the time. For diesels, nitrous is a dry setup, meaning only nitrous, and no fuel is sprayed in. You don't need to worry about running too lean on a diesel. BTW, the motor did have a 44 mm wastegate opening all the way at full power. Without a gate, it would have certainly blown up the turbos due to excessive drive pressure. It could have also floated a valve, even though the motor has heavy duty push rods and valve springs.

So if you have a proper wastegate setup to keep drive pressure under control, and if you trust your bottom end to hold together enough for the gains you want, give 'er a whirl.

#2- "Nitrous is more violent than fuel only." Aw, horse crap. It's only more violent if you run a hill billy pile-o-junk setup. Most people saying it's violent have never effectively used a progressive controller. If you've got an on/off button to control things, then you are asking for trouble. If you run a progressive controller, you set the parameters on when, and how much to put into it. Running full tilt with the "500 shot" I ran, it came on incredibly smooth because that's how I programmed it to work. You can fully map both solenoids by simultaneously controlling multiple trigger points like throttle position, boost, speed, rpm, time, or whatever.

If you want to try some spray, and are willing to risk blowing up your motor, then I'd love to see what the gains and limits are. On a stock bottom end, I recommend you keep the spray off until at least 2500 rpm's. down low is where you stress and break stuff. Up higher, the risk is still there, but greatly reduced. Make sure if you do it, you have a proper wastegate setup for both banks of the motor, to keep it all in check. Those '11-'14 factory turbos are already at their limits with tuning, so I'd never spray on one of those. The '11-'14 injection pumps are at their limits with aggressive tuning as well, so don't expect much for gains there.

In summary, nitrous can be really fun and safe if you have the proper setup for it. It's more of a short burst use application though as it's expensive, and you gotta open/close the bottle with each use, so it doesn't leak out, as well as make sure your bottle pressure is good. (I lost over 80 hp from my best run with the only change being bottle pressure a little lower than desired.) too much pressure, and your solenoids can't overcome the pressure to open. I've got an '08 excursion running that same motor I sprayed hard with, that I'd like to take to the track a few times a year, although it's back down to a single pump, 700 hp street setup now. Throwing the bottle at it might give me another 100 or so rwhp, and I'll give it a try when I get the time.

As mentioned many times prior in this thread, no bottle setup is best for daily drivers, and the way most people go for a truck not dedicated to competiton. If you decide to try it out, send me a PM with your number, and we can talk about setting it up with the most likely shot at success.
 
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Mr. Wayne,

I think we see things very differently.

Question #1- Can nitrous cool EGT's? Theoretically, yes. Practically, no. The only way to actually cool EGT's with nitrous is to take it to such a lean condition that you would actually be putting out the flame and, consequently, decreasing horsepower. Which, at that point, why would you be spraying nitrous as a power adder?

If you are running .8 lambda and add nitrous and go to 1.3 lambda, you will increase EGT's. When your lambda gets too lean, you have no more fuel to burn and the EGT's will decrease, as will your power. You can over fuel your engine as well to bring down EGT's but, that doesn't make a lot of sense either. It's a balance.

Question #2- Is nitrous more violent than fuel only? Absolutely. Nitrous is an oxidizer and will increase cylinder pressure when combined with the proper amount of fuel. Since nitrous is introduced into the system at a very quick rate shortly before the cylinder, there's also room for hot spots or inconsistent burning which may be negligible and just fine for short periods of time but still contribute to potential failures, shortened component lifespan and premature wear. So to answer the question, yes nitrous is more violent (brutal, harsh, severe, etc) compared to running straight air as an oxygen source.

Those are my findings based on experience and science. I'm just a hillbilly running multiple piles of junk though. :tree:

P.S. I love nitrous :rockon:
 

amplituderacing

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Mr. Wayne,

I think we see things very differently.

Question #1- Can nitrous cool EGT's? Theoretically, yes. Practically, no. The only way to actually cool EGT's with nitrous is to take it to such a lean condition that you would actually be putting out the flame and, consequently, decreasing horsepower. Which, at that point, why would you be spraying nitrous as a power adder?

If you are running .8 lambda and add nitrous and go to 1.3 lambda, you will increase EGT's. When your lambda gets too lean, you have no more fuel to burn and the EGT's will decrease, as will your power. You can over fuel your engine as well to bring down EGT's but, that doesn't make a lot of sense either. It's a balance.

Question #2- Is nitrous more violent than fuel only? Absolutely. Nitrous is an oxidizer and will increase cylinder pressure when combined with the proper amount of fuel. Since nitrous is introduced into the system at a very quick rate shortly before the cylinder, there's also room for hot spots or inconsistent burning which may be negligible and just fine for short periods of time but still contribute to potential failures, shortened component lifespan and premature wear. So to answer the question, yes nitrous is more violent (brutal, harsh, severe, etc) compared to running straight air as an oxygen source.

Those are my findings based on experience and science. I'm just a hillbilly running multiple piles of junk though. :tree:

P.S. I love nitrous :rockon:
Again, spot on.

Nitrous is a more combustible fuel source than diesel, there's no debating that. Will it make for a more violent ignition? Yes. That's a guarantee. You want horsepower? That's high power combustion in little time ... Aka violent ignition.

At the end of the day, horsepower - no matter how it's made - stresses parts. If you want to lower EGT, use a water injection system or get rid of the exhaust system. That's actually the only way to effectively lower EGT.

Nitrous on a daily driver? Terrible idea. Nitrous on a stock truck looking to compete? You're asking for trouble.



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Wayne

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Mr. Wayne,

I think we see things very differently.

Question #1- Can nitrous cool EGT's? Theoretically, yes. Practically, no. The only way to actually cool EGT's with nitrous is to take it to such a lean condition that you would actually be putting out the flame and, consequently, decreasing horsepower. Which, at that point, why would you be spraying nitrous as a power adder?

If you are running .8 lambda and add nitrous and go to 1.3 lambda, you will increase EGT's. When your lambda gets too lean, you have no more fuel to burn and the EGT's will decrease, as will your power. You can over fuel your engine as well to bring down EGT's but, that doesn't make a lot of sense either. It's a balance.

Question #2- Is nitrous more violent than fuel only? Absolutely. Nitrous is an oxidizer and will increase cylinder pressure when combined with the proper amount of fuel. Since nitrous is introduced into the system at a very quick rate shortly before the cylinder, there's also room for hot spots or inconsistent burning which may be negligible and just fine for short periods of time but still contribute to potential failures, shortened component lifespan and premature wear. So to answer the question, yes nitrous is more violent (brutal, harsh, severe, etc) compared to running straight air as an oxygen source.

Those are my findings based on experience and science. I'm just a hillbilly running multiple piles of junk though. :tree:

P.S. I love nitrous :rockon:

well, you do make a few good points in there, and since you used the word "science", effectively invalidating my statements, I digress. :flush:

Again, spot on.

Nitrous is a more combustible fuel source than diesel, there's no debating that. Will it make for a more violent ignition? Yes. That's a guarantee. You want horsepower? That's high power combustion in little time ... Aka violent ignition.

At the end of the day, horsepower - no matter how it's made - stresses parts. If you want to lower EGT, use a water injection system or get rid of the exhaust system. That's actually the only way to effectively lower EGT.

Nitrous on a daily driver? Terrible idea. Nitrous on a stock truck looking to compete? You're asking for trouble.



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...and all this time I thought nitrous was an oxidizer, not a fuel. Dang. :shrug: I guess tuning for diesel fuel injection timing to control combustion timing goes out the window when nitrous fuel is injected. That being the case, I now see how nitrous is violent, and I'm just lucky that I didn't blow stuff up. I also thought things like higher efficiency charge air coolers could lower EGT's. Thanks for setting us straight. Good info here :toast:
 

amplituderacing

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well, you do make a few good points in there, and since you used the word "science", effectively invalidating my statements, I digress. :flush:




...and all this time I thought nitrous was an oxidizer, not a fuel. Dang. :shrug: I guess tuning for diesel fuel injection timing to control combustion timing goes out the window when nitrous fuel is injected. That being the case, I now see how nitrous is violent, and I'm just lucky that I didn't blow stuff up. I also thought things like higher efficiency charge air coolers could lower EGT's. Thanks for setting us straight. Good info here :toast:
Nitrous is an oxidizer, but mixed with diesel under pressure it becomes violently combustible. Unless you've designed a way to inject nitrous only on the exhaust stroke in your diesel to lower EGT, it's going to be used as a 'fuel' in the sense that it's going to be injected in the motor along with more actual fuel (diesel) to create a stronger combustion.

Is the nitrous really combusting? No. Nitrous is actually non-flammable. But you're using it as a fuel because you're mixing it with diesel in high pressure.

Point is ... bigger, faster bang regardless of how you make it = horsepower, and horsepower breaks parts. If these trucks were reliable at 1000hp, they would have been marketed at 1000hp.

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