Stubborn no start issue, looking for advice

[superduty4x4]

Got a friend's pickup at my place trying to get it going again. It's a 95 F250 with e-fuel, Farmer's Diesel injectors (somewhere around 300cc w/100% nozzles I believe), Terminator dual HPOPs, Tyrant tunes, S468 turbo, etc. When I picked the truck up the problem was it wouldn't crank... when you hit the key the starter relay on the fender would smoke. That problem has been resolved, but now the truck won't run. It has run twice for about 3 minutes, but the majority of the time it will crank and crank and crank but NO smoke from the exhaust, no cough, no sputter, no anything. Here's what I have done so far:

Checked all fuses (ad nauseum)
Swapped PCM relay
Swapped CPS (3 different sensors, multiple swaps)
Tried starting with and without ICP plugged in
Checked UVCH's, replaced passenger side due to burned UVCH/gasket
No fuel in coolant
No fuel in oil
HPO reservoir is full
Oil pan is full
Fuel is full
Fuel PSI is 65-67
Tried starting with and without chip installed
Cleaned IPR
Swapped IPR
Checked voltage at IPR plug

My truck starts and runs fine with his PCM, IDM and his IPR harness in my truck so those 3 things are good. Since this is a 95 AutoEnginuity has major heart burn trying to talk to the PCM, I have not been able to get AE to connect, even after calling AE and trying different settings and such with them on the phone while I was in the truck.

WHEN it runs, it runs fine, but only for 3-4 minutes then dies like the key has been shut off. I did ohm test the injectors and they ohmed out high, but they all ohmed out high and the readings between injectors were similar so I'm thinking my multimeter must have been having a bad moment or something. I'm at a loss for what to look for or try next. Suggestions would be highly appreciated!

 

[JLDickmon]

frame mounted fuel pump?

 

[joebob3093]

Yes factory SD pump for now

 

[CSIPSD]

Can you get a scan gauge to work on it?

My first thought this whole time is injectors... Thats the ONLY major thing that changed between when this truck ran, and when it didn't.

If your getting it to start, then it quits, its exactly what mine did when I had a bad injector build...

Pull the valve covers and crank... See if you have oil leaking out of any of the injector bodies...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fxe6wC9JHVQ

Listen to it crank, you can hear the HPO build up, and then see it piss out of the injector body. Would run for a short time, then once the oil got warm at ALL the HPOP could not maintain pressure and it died. It would not restart until the oil temp dropped.

 

[CSIPSD]

As well, the AE thing is not new. I had a bitch of a time getting it to connect every time to his truck. I cant remember how I figured it out, but I did get it down.

 

[superduty4x4]

Can you get a scan gauge to work on it?

Pull the valve covers and crank... See if you have oil leaking out of any of the injector bodies...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fxe6wC9JHVQ

I don't have a scan gauge. My next step was going to be to pull the VC's back off and check for oil out the injector spouts while cranking... just haven't had time to do that yet.

As well, the AE thing is not new. I had a bitch of a time getting it to connect every time to his truck. I cant remember how I figured it out, but I did get it down.

Yeah I know he/you have had a helluva time with AE on that truck. I called AE and tried some stuff while they were on the phone with me, the AE tech doesn't think the PCM was flashed to be OBD2 compatible.

 

[CSIPSD]

Do you have access to another PCM? Even swapping yours would give you a start no start. It would allow you to access the PCM when cranking, matter of fact it should drive just fine being yours is an AUTO?

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

Very simple test...

Go find a plug that will thread into the end of the HPO line. Disconnect it from one of the heads, plug it. So now you are only feeding one head any oil. The truck can and certainly will run with only 4 injectors firing. You can electrically unplug the 4 that you aren't feeding just so they aren't doing anything at all.
Do this for both sides of the motor.

If it is 1 injector causing the issue like joe mentioned, this will find your issue. Obviously if you have a bad injector on both banks you are screwed with this test.

Could be that dirt might of gotten inside one of the injectors causing it to hang open and ruin the HPO supply for the entire bank. Though this would surprise me. Had a customer about a month ago have this happen, when injectors were pulled back apart it looked like they had been installed in a dust storm.

This test will also allow you to narrow down any issue under the valve cover so you can focus elsewhere for the issue.

When it runs for 3 minutes or so, is it usually when the oil is coldest? Or is it completely random?

 

[superduty4x4]

Do you have access to another PCM? Even swapping yours would give you a start no start. It would allow you to access the PCM when cranking, matter of fact it should drive just fine being yours is an AUTO?

I haven't pulled the PCM from my truck (stick) to try it in Joe's truck because if there is a wiring issue somewhere, I didn't want to fry my PCM and have my truck dead in the water. I have a spare PCM, but it's a 96 CA emissions PCM so it's basically useless (different pin-out)

Very simple test...

Go find a plug that will thread into the end of the HPO line. Disconnect it from one of the heads, plug it. So now you are only feeding one head any oil. The truck can and certainly will run with only 4 injectors firing. You can electrically unplug the 4 that you aren't feeding just so they aren't doing anything at all.
Do this for both sides of the motor.

If it is 1 injector causing the issue like joe mentioned, this will find your issue. Obviously if you have a bad injector on both banks you are screwed with this test.

Could be that dirt might of gotten inside one of the injectors causing it to hang open and ruin the HPO supply for the entire bank. Though this would surprise me. Had a customer about a month ago have this happen, when injectors were pulled back apart it looked like they had been installed in a dust storm.

This test will also allow you to narrow down any issue under the valve cover so you can focus elsewhere for the issue.

When it runs for 3 minutes or so, is it usually when the oil is coldest? Or is it completely random?

The 2 times it has started has been completely random. No combination of swapping anything or wiggling this or saying the right swear words seems to make it start. Both times the oil in the pan was cold though, since it had only been cranked a few times (at best) before it decided to fire off. The first time it fired it hadn't been started or even cranked over in months. The second time... I can't recall but I think I had cranked it over a few times earlier in the day before it fired.
Any idea what the thread pitch/size is for the HPO lines?

 

[JLDickmon]

what was the last thing that got done to it before it quit running?

 

[superduty4x4]

frame mounted fuel pump?

Yes factory SD pump for now

Sorry, didn't mean to pass your reply over JLDickmon. As joebob said, factory SD pump with aftermarket prepump/post pump filters installed. It's got 65-67psi at the regulator (per the in-cab gauge) and I cracked the fittings on the return lines with the pump running to make sure there wasn't some trapped air in there for some odd reason.

 

[backwoodsboy]

I think I've got a TDE4 pcm sitting out in the shop I can ship you if you think that might be the issue.
HPO fittings should be SAE #5 ORB if I'm not mistaken.

 

[joebob3093]

what was the last thing that got done to it before it quit running?

i was driving to a friends house and it slowly died out. once it died i tried starting it, it would crank over strong but would not fire.

 

[superduty4x4]

I think I've got a TDE4 pcm sitting out in the shop I can ship you if you think that might be the issue.
HPO fittings should be SAE #5 ORB if I'm not mistaken.

Thanks but since his PCM works fine in my truck I don't think the PCM is the issue. If needed I can throw my PCM in his truck to get AE to connect... kind of a hassle but easier than shipping a PCM back and forth across the state.

 

[CSIPSD]

i was driving to a friends house and it slowly died out. once it died i tried starting it, it would crank over strong but would not fire.

Thats why I still believe its an injector or injector O ring issue...

Need to know what ICP pressure its building... It could be a pump issue, but I doubt it, more so when it does start from time to time.

 

[superduty4x4]

Thats why I still believe its an injector or injector O ring issue...

Need to know what ICP pressure its building... It could be a pump issue, but I doubt it, more so when it does start from time to time.

I guess the next step is to swap my PCM over to his truck to try and get a read on ICP and IPR DC% while cranking to see if it's building pressure or not... I may start there then pop the valve covers back off.

 

[CSIPSD]

Yup. I dont think you have anything to worry about on the PCM issue. From what I have seen in this thread and via our text messages I really think (among all the other little issues you have found) its injector related.

 

[CSIPSD]

Oh, if its injector related, pull them all and send them to Tim at P.I.S... Should be able to fix them right up, and put the proper sized nozzle on a 300cc injector... LOL

 

[superduty4x4]

Yup. I dont think you have anything to worry about on the PCM issue. From what I have seen in this thread and via our text messages I really think (among all the other little issues you have found) its injector related.

I was leaning that way too but figured I'd throw it out there in case there was some other little thing I had over looked while trying to troubleshoot this. What I can't wrap my head around is WHEN it decides to fire, it runs like a champ. But when it doesn't fire there is no smoke, no coughing, no anything... I was thinking with one or two bad injectors it would at least try to start and run like crap, not just completely crap out and not do anything.

 

[CSIPSD]

If it cant build ICP, it cant build ICP. If there is an injector problem, even one having ICP issues will cause enough of an issue to kill the truck, you saw the video above, mine would run PERFECT, until the oil temp just started to warm, then like a switch it would die.