What am I missing?

madpowerstroke · Jun 14, 2013

Lot of you know that I have been working on a build, and some of you may have been following the build. Here's the problem and it's killing me, I have customer running stage 3 turbos with 190/100 and are all right in with each other. They are at about 640-660rwhp some on dyno others on track. So here is the deal, if you go up in fuel, since the 190/100 are on small side of what a stage 3 can handle would you think going to 225/75 would increase the power at least by 40rwhp. So a truck with stage 3 and 225/75 should be at about 680-700rwhp right? Now the trucks with 190/100 have had live tuning to hit the numbers, but I can't figure what the help is going on.

Nick had his truck make 590rwhp with 175/75, but with 205/100 made 610 or there about, same turbo. That should have been higher and with all the stuff he has done to his engine he still is not as high as the 190/100 stage 3. I also have had some done to engine and still can't hit the number the others have with all stock set ups.

So what is it the big vgt just don't need the fuel to hit the big numbers, or just need live time for it? Let me know what you guys think is causing the issues.

imelmo · Jun 14, 2013

I must've missed some results somewhere. Is there a thread somewhere showing track times with 190's that equal 640rwhp on fuel? That'd be pretty impressive.

.

amarillo250 · Jun 14, 2013

maybe the injectors with pulsewidth and duty cycle in conjunction with the ficm????? Not sure but if they run fine with live tuning then have 2-3 trucks live tuned and compare those with the initial set up.
Just a guess dont nail me on it

2wd-fire · Jun 14, 2013

madpowerstroke said:
Lot of you know that I have been working on a build, and some of you may have been following the build. Here's the problem and it's killing me, I have customer running stage 3 turbos with 190/100 and are all right in with each other. They are at about 640-660rwhp some on dyno others on track. So here is the deal, if you go up in fuel, since the 190/100 are on small side of what a stage 3 can handle would you think going to 225/75 would increase the power at least by 40rwhp. So a truck with stage 3 and 225/75 should be at about 680-700rwhp right? Now the trucks with 190/100 have had live tuning to hit the numbers, but I can't figure what the help is going on.

Nick had his truck make 590rwhp with 175/75, but with 205/100 made 610 or there about, same turbo. That should have been higher and with all the stuff he has done to his engine he still is not as high as the 190/100 stage 3. I also have had some done to engine and still can't hit the number the others have with all stock set ups.

So what is it the big vgt just don't need the fuel to hit the big numbers, or just need live time for it? Let me know what you guys think is causing the issues.

if he had a weak pump and dropped icp that could be why didnt make alot more power

06f250powerstroke · Jun 14, 2013

my guess is the stock heads

Mdub707 · Jun 14, 2013

There are so many factors here, it's not even funny.

What were ICP readings on all trucks?

What were boost numbers and back pressure numbers?

Same dyno?

Same day, conditions?

Some were live tuned, others were not, were they even running tunes from the same tuner?

So many variables....

Fuel pressure?

Track times for any of them?

Redneck6.0L · Jun 14, 2013

190s on fuel make as much or more power than 225s if all running stock 05 hpop you lose way more power with the drop of icp than you think u gain with larger stixs

imelmo · Jun 14, 2013

Redneck6.0L said:
190s on fuel make as much or more power than 225s if all running stock 05 hpop you lose way more power with the drop of icp than you think u gain with larger stixs

Hmmm. Never thought about that.

.

JDub · Jun 14, 2013

Redneck6.0L said:
190s on fuel make as much or more power than 225s if all running stock 05 hpop you lose way more power with the drop of icp than you think u gain with larger stixs

I would absolutely believe that...

HobbyStock62 · Jun 14, 2013

so it sounds like 190/100s and a stage 3 is the magic combo? I was planning on 205/100s because i thought it would get me to the 650 mark, but sounds like i should just do 190s.

Cold Roller · Jun 14, 2013

Maybe, as you said earlier, it is a matter of having the best level of overall acceleration to give the best ET and/or trap speed. In addition to the shift points, your early acceleration is what is killing both the ET and trap.

Why do you think the turbo was bogging down? Is there not enough fuel/heat to keep it ready spooled at launch or not enough T/C slip? Are the tires spinning too much or does it bog as the traction comes on?

With the dual pump, the ICP falling off has got to be costing you some top end fuel, assuming the injectors are delivering as advertised. Let's hope it is air in the line and not a hyd coupling or interference (system not joint) issue.

Are the PW and injector timing where you want them? It is too bad you couldn't have run a similar tune with small changes to compare results.

It is still a good result, but as an outlier for what you expected. Maybe you need to add a few stickers to your truck and have a

int:

Jeremysmith9902 · Jun 14, 2013

does Nick have a ported intake manifold?

madpowerstroke · Jun 15, 2013

Cold Roller said:
Maybe, as you said earlier, it is a matter of having the best level of overall acceleration to give the best ET and/or trap speed. In addition to the shift points, your early acceleration is what is killing both the ET and trap.

Why do you think the turbo was bogging down? Is there not enough fuel/heat to keep it ready spooled at launch or not enough T/C slip? Are the tires spinning too much or does it bog as the traction comes on?

With the dual pump, the ICP falling off has got to be costing you some top end fuel, assuming the injectors are delivering as advertised. Let's hope it is air in the line and not a hyd coupling or interference (system not joint) issue.

Are the PW and injector timing where you want them? It is too bad you couldn't have run a similar tune with small changes to compare results.

It is still a good result, but as an outlier for what you expected. Maybe you need to add a few stickers to your truck and have a int:

Yes I agree with the T/C and may have to slip it more to get the boost to come up. I also found a problem that my ICP pressure was low and now have it back up.

As far as PW and injection timing I'm not familar with what the best is suppose to be. Maybe someone can helping on what to look for.

I have also ordered some new sticker to put on the truck........

Jeremysmith9902 said:
does Nick have a ported intake manifold?

Yes, Nick and I have ported intakes.

2wd-fire · Jun 15, 2013

Redneck6.0L said:
190s on fuel make as much or more power than 225s if all running stock 05 hpop you lose way more power with the drop of icp than you think u gain with larger stixs

couldnt you just dial pw back to keep icp up.

Cold Roller · Jun 15, 2013

The reason I brought up the PW and timing was that this past winter I had a unique problem in real cold weather, that is gone now that it has warmed up. It seems some of the tunes and tuners haven't set the tables to handle real cold weather and a cold truck. I will say that now that it is warm (above 25*f), the tune runs between 3-10* BTDC timing. When it was cold, it would start at 11-14*BTDC and slowly go down to about 8*BTDC at the lowest! Needless to say, at low RPM and not much AP the truck would pull incredibly hard with the timing over 10*BTDC. That was probably hard on the truck, but there was no doubt about the performance. Even at highway speed and warm engine, in real cold weather the timing was advanced compared to normal. So for most of the winter I put on a lesser tune.

A similar thing was happening in the transmission. There was less slip in the T/C when doing a power run cold, so it pulled very well in 5th. Once warm temps came along, I put the tune back on, but the tune was not able to keep the slip to a reasonable level when at WOT. Too make a long story short, the dyno numbers suffered because of the slip at higher RPM and power levels. I thought my T/C was failing until I put on a different tune.

Yes, he could have dialed PW back to try and save ICP, but the point is to get more fuelling and the reason for the dual HPOPs.

windrunner408 · Jun 16, 2013

madpowerstroke said:
Lot of you know that I have been working on a build, and some of you may have been following the build. Here's the problem and it's killing me, I have customer running stage 3 turbos with 190/100 and are all right in with each other. They are at about 640-660rwhp some on dyno others on track. So here is the deal, if you go up in fuel, since the 190/100 are on small side of what a stage 3 can handle would you think going to 225/75 would increase the power at least by 40rwhp. So a truck with stage 3 and 225/75 should be at about 680-700rwhp right? Now the trucks with 190/100 have had live tuning to hit the numbers, but I can't figure what the help is going on.

Nick had his truck make 590rwhp with 175/75, but with 205/100 made 610 or there about, same turbo. That should have been higher and with all the stuff he has done to his engine he still is not as high as the 190/100 stage 3. I also have had some done to engine and still can't hit the number the others have with all stock set ups.

So what is it the big vgt just don't need the fuel to hit the big numbers, or just need live time for it? Let me know what you guys think is causing the issues.

2wd-fire said:
if he had a weak pump and dropped icp that could be why didnt make alot more power

I think this^^^^ combined with live tuning is why you aren't seeing exactly what you're looking for. Regardless of what "other trucks" have done, your truck Adrian has gotten stronger (based on your own track speeds) with the larger injectors (even though you have smaller nozzles). You even said that you were dropping ICP but have since gotten it fixed. I personally believe that with full 4k psi of ICP and some live tuning by Eric, you'll see some higher 600s numbers. I wouldn't have thought that Eric would have been able to pull out an extra 50hp on Pete's truck over email tuning but he did.

Josh@DirtyDiesels · Jun 17, 2013

madpowerstroke said:
Lot of you know that I have been working on a build, and some of you may have been following the build. Here's the problem and it's killing me, I have customer running stage 3 turbos with 190/100 and are all right in with each other. They are at about 640-660rwhp some on dyno others on track. So here is the deal, if you go up in fuel, since the 190/100 are on small side of what a stage 3 can handle would you think going to 225/75 would increase the power at least by 40rwhp. So a truck with stage 3 and 225/75 should be at about 680-700rwhp right? Now the trucks with 190/100 have had live tuning to hit the numbers, but I can't figure what the help is going on.

Nick had his truck make 590rwhp with 175/75, but with 205/100 made 610 or there about, same turbo. That should have been higher and with all the stuff he has done to his engine he still is not as high as the 190/100 stage 3. I also have had some done to engine and still can't hit the number the others have with all stock set ups.

So what is it the big vgt just don't need the fuel to hit the big numbers, or just need live time for it? Let me know what you guys think is causing the issues.

640-660 with a stage 3 and 190's? the truck that was at Eric's last weekend when I was there (white ext cab, forget his name with I believe he said 190's and a stage 3) was right at 600... 600 and 640-660 is a pretty significant difference...

the chad · Jun 17, 2013

Josh I'm guessing he's referring to my cousin Briar's truck, dynoed 636 iirc, and ran a 12.5, I forgot trap.

windrunner408 · Jun 17, 2013

dzlpwr said:
640-660 with a stage 3 and 190's? the truck that was at Eric's last weekend when I was there (white ext cab, forget his name with I believe he said 190's and a stage 3) was right at 600... 600 and 640-660 is a pretty significant difference...

the chad said:
Josh I'm guessing he's referring to my cousin Briar's truck, dynoed 636 iirc, and ran a 12.5, I forgot trap.

Briar dyno'd in the 623 range at Eric's and trapped at 107 something at the track, which put him at around the 640-650hp mark based on track runs and was significantly higher than his dyno reading.

Now Pete's truck hit a 606 on Eric's dyno with 35in tires and stock gears. It is my understanding (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that there is about 10-15hp to be had from switching to smaller stock tires, which would put his truck closer to the 620hp range (based on Eric's dyno) and if track results are actually higher than Eric's dyno readings, then 640hp isn't an unreasonable expectation for the motor IF Pete put on stock tires.

I think this is where Adrian is getting the basis for his numbers from.

e.nickkk · Jun 17, 2013

My truck made 590 with 175/75 but when I went bigger injectors 205/100 only made 40 more rwhp but my icp maxed out at 3.6 volts so I'm thinking I wasn't making power because the drop in icp. I have since baught jesses dual pump set up. Missing a few parts soon it will be ready to go on. I will update when I hit the track again or dyno