4r conversion folks, any regrets?

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

Maybe its juat single turbo guys that benefit from the 4r swap. Like watching jds video his power comes on from the start and smooth. Mine is all out once when it lights. Just a thought. I know plenty of guys that have 5rs built over and over with 475s on the street and haven't been able to keep one in it. ALSO what's everyones tunes being tuned through? Im using a Livewire and I've heard tunes through MCC shift much better!

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

We have one with a 475, dual fuelers and 100% nozzles. Full billet competition trans we built. Trans works flawlessly. Using mcc to tune it. Still tweaking, it's just keeps getting better.

 

[jdgleason]

Ok, what's the cost of a 5r that will hold 750hp? Not trying to start a pissing match with anyone just asking questions.

From elite - stage 3 is $5500 + a converter for a full billet trans.

 

[Strokin6.4]

We have one with a 475, dual fuelers and 100% nozzles. Full billet competition trans we built. Trans works flawlessly. Using mcc to tune it. Still tweaking, it's just keeps getting better.

Think the MCC is helping it live? Not that its built to die lol. But you get what I'm saying.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

[stonepusher]

Yeah Steve said it a little harshly. But it seems that everyone that has a 4r swap gets really mad when anyone says that it's not what they would recommend.

Your right I don't own a 6.4 with a 4r. I've driven a built 4r, quite a few of them, from many companies. They are fine transmissions. I have also driven built 5r's, quite a few of them, from many companies. I still wouldn't want a 4r in a 6.4.

I am pointing out from experience with both that I do not think the juice is worth the squeeze for most 6.4 owners.

Everyone keeps saying how bad the 5r is, please point out exact areas that a 4r is superior. Here is my shot at pros and cons of 4r swap

Pros:

If you use a bts, Brian will warranty it

It shifts faster (not really a pro unless shooting for sub 10 sec 1/4 mile times).

It has to shift less times (not really a pro unless shooting for 1/4 times).

If buying a bts it's slightly cheaper (but not really cheaper than all competitors).

cons:

No longer a factory transmission.

Must use a pcs and get special tuning for it.

Must change PCM to work with swap.

No cruise control yet.

Not really cheaper.

You loose tow haul.

You lose a gear (not as good for towing).

The shafts themselves are not really any stronger.

The converter is not really any stronger.

Not as easy to re-sell except to someone who is willing to accept the differences of a non stock transmission in the truck.

If I am missing some pro's please add them in. Likewise with the cons.

Good post! I never said the 4r was more superior. I stated my experiences with both. Good points on both ends, but fwiw my truck drives damn near like its in tow haul at all times, is that good for towing or bad for towing idk because I have never towed anything. As for tuning, instead of taking 30 min to change trans tune when having a 5r, having the pcs is a totally different computer and making changes takes a minute maybe, damn near on the fly. Maybe that can change if you use a pcs with the 5r but you would still have to flash the PCM to a manual trans. I think I remember seeing one post of using a built 5r and a pcs, well now your adding another $800 to the cost of your trans. Like stated, my 5r took me a long way.....but there was an option so I took it. Not downing any 5r builder I just chose the 4r. The 4r has worked flawlessly for me as a race trans and daily driven trans. That's what the OP was wanting to know. People who have done the swap and have it. Not just been around it. No offense.

 

[jdgleason]

Fwiw stage 5 trans from elite is $8300 plus converter.

I'm using a livewire for tuning in mine

To be honest, I feel like the whole "5r doesn't work" mentality came about before tuning and stuff had really evolved for them. A lot has changed in the last year or two with these transmissions - both 4r and 5r.

 

[weekendwarriorfsw32]

Just throwing in my 2 cents on 5r's. My stock trans in my 450 went at 100,000 and before that I beat the crap out of it like burnouts, racing, full throttle on on ramps all day long with no issues. Now with my built trans I have broken it 4 times and still to this day I have issues with it even with Gear Head tuning. Say I have 10,000 lb behind it and I am in a tow tune, rolling about 25-30 down the road and get into it, it bangs and I means BANGS into the gear to the point I think something should snap and when it locks up the converter its so violent the whole truck surges unless I get off the throttle. Also another thing with towing is if I am in 6th and I start to roll into it towing I get a weird vibration that feels like it is coming from my trans but if I shift down to 5th it goes away. I cant even remember the last time I went to wide open throttle in it, terrified something is going to let loose, wish I would have gotten another stock trans that I could beat and have a warranty. On the flip side my 6.0's 5r has been awesome, stock 135,000 miles on it and it has been beat, still kicking with 550 hp. When that ones comes time for a trans I don't know what I will do. I don't want another nightmare of a built 5r that my 6.4 has been. Not sure weather to do a 4r swap, another stock one, or a mildly built 5r with all hard parts and either stock clutches or Raybestos but not machined drums for more clutches just the stock number and a STOCK solenoid's, I still think the aftermarket ones that flow more are part of what is causing me issues on my 6.4. I know this was kinda long winded but I wish so badly I could have a 5r in my 450 that was everything all you guys are saying it is but mine isn't.

 

[Dzchey21]

Personally I thinj most 5r problems come from too firm of shifts

most people would hate how soft my trans shifts I bet...

 

[stonepusher]

IMO live tuning is crucial in 5r's, but that can also be said with 4r's

 

[weekendwarriorfsw32]

I agree, in my innovative tunes I have it backed of the 25% that the sct will allow. Is there a way to make the converter lock up more softly?

Personally I thinj most 5r problems come from too firm of shifts

most people would hate how soft my trans shifts I bet...

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

Personally I thinj most 5r problems come from too firm of shifts

most people would hate how soft my trans shifts I bet...

I agree that harshness hurts. Good tuning = good 5r life.

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

Good post! I never said the 4r was more superior. I stated my experiences with both. Good points on both ends, but fwiw my truck drives damn near like its in tow haul at all times, is that good for towing or bad for towing idk because I have never towed anything. As for tuning, instead of taking 30 min to change trans tune when having a 5r, having the pcs is a totally different computer and making changes takes a minute maybe, damn near on the fly. Maybe that can change if you use a pcs with the 5r but you would still have to flash the PCM to a manual trans. I think I remember seeing one post of using a built 5r and a pcs, well now your adding another $800 to the cost of your trans. Like stated, my 5r took me a long way.....but there was an option so I took it. Not downing any 5r builder I just chose the 4r. The 4r has worked flawlessly for me as a race trans and daily driven trans. That's what the OP was wanting to know. People who have done the swap and have it. Not just been around it. No offense.

I guess the tuning speed is one thing I missed. And yeah I can see how the trans tune will make it drive like its in tow haul.

I have towed with 4rs and 5rs as well. Once again do you have to own a 6.4 with a 4r to have driven and experienced them? I understand what the op is saying about having regrets. But at the same time having driven both the built 4 and 5rs, I think my opinion is relevant.

I never said they don't work or that they are terrible etc.... But if we can make the 5r do the same for the same cost then why not?

I can say that the 4r in a regular cab for a fun toy truck would be a blast. But Idk if I would honestly do it or leave a 5r in it. But in a tow, dd, sub 1000hp truck I don't think that you can go wrong with a good 5r and good tuning to make it work optimally.

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

Think the MCC is helping it live? Not that its built to die lol. But you get what I'm saying.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

I think that tuning that works when it is supposed to makes the difference. No jumping all over the place when the power curve comes in.

 

[stonepusher]

I guess the tuning speed is one thing I missed. And yeah I can see how the trans tune will make it drive like its in tow haul.

I have towed with 4rs and 5rs as well. Once again do you have to own a 6.4 with a 4r to have driven and experienced them? I understand what the op is saying about having regrets. But at the same time having driven both the built 4 and 5rs, I think my opinion is relevant.

I never said they don't work or that they are terrible etc.... But if we can make the 5r do the same for the same cost then why not?

I can say that the 4r in a regular cab for a fun toy truck would be a blast. But Idk if I would honestly do it or leave a 5r in it. But in a tow, dd, sub 1000hp truck I don't think that you can go wrong with a good 5r and good tuning to make it work optimally.

Exactly, ever opinion is relevant that's why we are on a forum...... But if it cost the same to do a 4r as 5r then your right why not? its an option, how many of us have said....after this I'm done..... everybody plans for the future hopefully. if its the cruise control than that's a pretty crappy argument if you ask me. Maybe the 5r is more suitable for the OP but you have to agree there is no need for the bashing of the 4r if they are the same in comparison correct? I may be wrong but the guys that posted that have done the the conversion never bashed the 5r, it just wasn't the option for them. No need for people to bash something they never truley driven.

 

[Dzchey21]

I agree, in my innovative tunes I have it backed of the 25% that the sct will allow. Is there a way to make the converter lock up more softly?

With mcc you can not sure about sct I would assume so

 

[Chris]

Yeah Steve said it a little harshly. But it seems that everyone that has a 4r swap gets really mad when anyone says that it's not what they would recommend.

Your right I don't own a 6.4 with a 4r. I've driven a built 4r, quite a few of them, from many companies. They are fine transmissions. I have also driven built 5r's, quite a few of them, from many companies. I still wouldn't want a 4r in a 6.4.

I am pointing out from experience with both that I do not think the juice is worth the squeeze for most 6.4 owners.

Everyone keeps saying how bad the 5r is, please point out exact areas that a 4r is superior. Here is my shot at pros and cons of 4r swap

Pros:

If you use a bts, Brian will warranty it

It shifts faster (not really a pro unless shooting for sub 10 sec 1/4 mile times).

It has to shift less times (not really a pro unless shooting for 1/4 times).

If buying a bts it's slightly cheaper (but not really cheaper than all competitors).

it shifts the same everytime.

spools turbo faster, less smoke.
cons:

No longer a factory transmission. absolutely, neither is anyones trucks or motors that are at the point of even contemplating a swap

Must use a pcs and get special tuning for it. easier and faster to tune for an end user/enthusiast.

Must change PCM to work with swap. not at all

No cruise control yet. correct.

Not really cheaper. over time, it is. especially after youve had to put direct clutches in the 5r a few times. also, the bts units now have 5r splined output shafts, so takes the tcase out of the equation. but realistically, at this point, is anyone even concerned about price.

You loose tow haul. pcs can handle 2 calibrations at once. one can be set up to work just like tow haul and can be customized however someone wants

You lose a gear (not as good for towing). with the converter lockup strategy you can split any gear and give it the same feeling as 5 gears. but you are correct, you only have 4 potential ratios. depending what you do with stall speed, you can actually spool the turbo/turbos faster and move a load with more ease. on the highway, both units have the same od ratio, so theres no difference. and again, at 700-800hp, how many of these trucks still do more than occassional light towing.

The shafts themselves are not really any stronger. give BTS brian a call. not all 4r shafts are created equal.

The converter is not really any stronger. true story

Not as easy to re-sell except to someone who is willing to accept the differences of a non stock transmission in the truck. goes back to the whole 700-800hp thing. we all know selling a hi-po diesel truck is usually a $$$ loser.If I am missing some pro's please add them in. Likewise with the cons.

id like to say my response to this post isnt trying to single anyone out or argue. i actually thought this was a great post and very objective and points out a LOT of the main differences between a 5r and 4r. i just wanted to address each question with my personal experience in the 5r to 4r swaps ive done.

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

id like to say my response to this post isnt trying to single anyone out or argue. i actually thought this was a great post and very objective and points out a LOT of the main differences between a 5r and 4r. i just wanted to address each question with my personal experience in the 5r to 4r swaps ive done.

I realize this and the points you make are valid. I take exception to a couple though.

A 4r 300m input is no stronger than a 5r 300m input, etc same basic shaft. The intermediate is basically the same size etc I could go on from there. (I've talked to Brian)

And you have to change the PCM, whether it be swapping in a manual or reflashing the auto pcm to a manual it doesn't matter. Can't stay the same.

I also disagree that the 4r is gonna be any cheaper in the long run. Either will cost some good money.

Once again we don't have any real failures with the good built 5rs using precision converters and the right tuning. The main downfall to the 5r is it's adaptive learning. If you tuned a 5r through a pcs controller you would have the same repeatable controllable shifts that a 4r has.

I still see no need to change to a 4r at 700hp. I have guys running around 800+ with 5rs now that have no problems.

The big difference is that the 4r has had a lot more time to perfect and get to where it's at now. Two years ago a 5r was not as good as it is now. With all the more refined tuning and better built 5rs I see the need to go to 4rs dwindling.

Once again respectfully sharing my opinion. I agree there is not much differences between the two in comparable (high end) form. But like stated before I just don't see the need to do this swap for 99% of the 5r guys out there.

 

[Chris]

I realize this and the points you make are valid. I take exception to a couple though.

A 4r 300m input is no stronger than a 5r 300m input, etc same basic shaft. The intermediate is basically the same size etc I could go on from there. (I've talked to Brian)

you are correct, they are very close in size. but maybe 300m isnt the end all to 4r inpt shafts.... not saying the same couldnt be made for a 5r tho.

And you have to change the PCM, whether it be swapping in a manual or reflashing the auto pcm to a manual it doesn't matter. Can't stay the same.

changing the pcm and reflashing/retuning are 2 very different things. any tarnsmission change will require a retune of the ecm.

I also disagree that the 4r is gonna be any cheaper in the long run. Either will cost some good money.

at 800 hp, the entire truck is going to cost someone money. $$$ isnt a pro or a con for either. its just part of big hp.

Once again we don't have any real failures with the good built 5rs using precision converters and the right tuning. The main downfall to the 5r is it's adaptive learning. If you tuned a 5r through a pcs controller you would have the same repeatable controllable shifts that a 4r has.

agreed. some 5rs can be made to hold VERY high hp. and then some built ones will always struggle. why is this? same builders, infinite tuning etc. The issue is the clutch synchronization on the 2-3 and 3-5 shift. If timed perfectly, theres no issue at all. but how do you compensate for the differences in clearances, fluid temp, pressures, clutch types, converter tightness, how fast it locks up. shifts locked to locked or unlocked to locked or unlocked to unlocked. there are just a lot of variables that have to be made perfect. if they are made perfect and never change, then the 5r performs perfectly. but if something is off, well youll be putting in direct clutches or shafts on a regular basis.

I still see no need to change to a 4r at 700hp. I have guys running around 800+ with 5rs now that have no problems.

absolutely correct. plenty of guys have held 4 digit power numbers with the 5r. but let me ask you this. have you ever driven a 700hp 6.4 w/ a good 5r, then drove the same exact truck w/ a bts 4r swapped in its place?

The big difference is that the 4r has had a lot more time to perfect and get to where it's at now. Two years ago a 5r was not as good as it is now. With all the more refined tuning and better built 5rs I see the need to go to 4rs dwindling.

You are right again. this is the biggest reason the 4r is such a good trans. but you will ALWAYS have clutch synchronizations and extra slower shifts to deal with on a 5r.

Once again respectfully sharing my opinion. I agree there is not much differences between the two in comparable (high end) form. But like stated before I just don't see the need to do this swap for 99% of the 5r guys out there.

i agree. most 6.0 and 6.4 guys dont need the swap. most dont need 600 hp either.

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

i agree. most 6.0 and 6.4 guys dont need the swap. most dont need 600 hp either.

I think we are like minded I what we are saying. The 5 does have the down fall of the shift synchronization. We can't really do much for that. Allison's have the same issues. They far along fine. There will always be someone who will want just a little more than what even the top notch 5r can do. For them the extra work of the 4r would suffice. And nope I haven't jumped from a built 5r truck to a built 4r truck that has the same engine in it. Although I have been in 4rs with 600+ Hp thrown at them and they drive good. No doubt. But it still would keep my 5r truck for a dd because of the whole cruise deal. That really is a problem for a guy like me that travels and drives a lot.

 

[weekendwarriorfsw32]

So are you guys saying that if I added a pcs controller to my 5r it would shift the exact same every time and wound not learn?

 

[01PSD]

So are you guys saying that if I added a pcs controller to my 5r it would shift the exact same every time and wound not learn?

Assuming you could get it to work properly, yes.
Elite has been working with it for a while, not sure where they stand with it now.