Compounds?

[6.0 Tech]

Let me start by saying i have no idea if or when thi is gonna happen. This is mostly cause the guys at diesels and more are azzholes and put yhis idea in my head, and now i want talked out of it....i think LOL

So what would i need to do reliability wise to run some cmpounds. The idea is my KC stage 2 as hp with an S475 for a low. I am planning on leaving my injectors as the 190/30, until i want faster i reckon, but thi is more for clean up of yhe injectors. I am well aware that a 225/XX or bigger, would be better for it. I am currently running a pretty reduced fuel tune on yhe street from idp, and the race tune smokes like a freight train.

Obviously a trans.would be necessary, but what about bottom end like rods, and pistons? Would i be ok with factory. I would more than likely have the heads o ringed while doing this for piece of mind, as well as put fresh lifters in, a i am starting to think twice about not doing them the last time it was apart. Possibly do a cam swap as well, not positive though. What about valve springs, push rods, etc?

Would i need a wastegate? The only compound set ups ive really dealt with are 6.4, which as i understand, use the egr as wastegate. But honestly i have no idea what they are trying to get me into, but it does sound fun.

What about piping? Is there any way to run the down pipe to the factoryish location? When googling pictures, i saw a couple thatwere running backwards through the cac, is this a better option than trying to fab a tube to enter in the factory side? How.stable do the low pressur turbos need to be mounted? Would a bracket uilt to bolt to the valve cover be sufficient enough? Where would the oil feed take off come from?

Thanks for any input and i apologize for my ADD fueled train of thought, but honestly this has been keeping me up at night thinking about this. Ple a se talk me out of it:doh:

 

[6fodays]

Im not gonna give full opinions on the turbo sizes and stuff because that is basically only gonna come from someone running the setup.....But ive always been a fan of straight big s500/s400 over an 3s300 with a couple gates. Im no expert on vgt compounds. That being said youd have to have someone fab you up a kit....definitely retain stock location for the valley turbo and probably remove the passenger side battery and ac for offset turbo......And its gonna be expensive. But on the engine size a cam and valve springs are almost necessary with that much drive pressure. Or you'd run a risk of floating a valve. Id definitely build the motor....low end torque will creep on you.


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[6.0 Tech]

Thats kinda what i was thinking... thanks for clarifying. I gues i was kind of hoping yhat the injectors being so small it wouldnt be too hard on the motor, but im kind of glad as well.

 

[Six_Sloww]

Definitely do a trans, it'll survive without rods but a vgt compound setup will make big torque quickly, so good tuning and common sense driving will be key... Really depends on budget and goals.

Do the cam swap. Aftermarket grinds are more efficient and you'll have lower drive pressures, Springs and pushrods are good insurance for any modified truck.

If you plan on sticking with 190/30's you probably won't need a gate, but It's cheaper to just have the gate piping done during the initial fabrication than adding on later if you decide to go with bigger injectors.

You won't have to remove your ac to fit a 475, you can either relocate your battery to the frame or the other side of the engine bay. The downpipe will go down along the fender liner and tie into your stock exhaust.

As for piping, Matt is a vender on here and has plenty of experience with 6.0 compound kits. His price will likely be cheaper than a custom kit unless you have a fabricator buddy that owes you a favor.

http://www.cutting-edgediesel.com/Our-Trucks-.html

 

[sootie]

Another vote for Matt @ Cutting Edge. You also could look up threads by Extended Power, he compounded his 6.0 ages ago and it has kept evolving.

Just want to correct you on the six fours using the egr as a wastegate. That is not entirely true. On a stock tune, at WOT, the egr valve opens slightly to bleed off some drive pressure. on any ****** tune that disables egr, that is no longer the case.

 

[Mdub707]

It seems like every setup I've seen tried with a VGT for the HP, never works out. Has anyone really runt his successfully? I remember MPD talking about doing it the most recently and then that went quiet real quick. I think tuning was the biggest issue with the majority of those setups, but I haven't really followed it in some time.

I always wanted to do a smaller compound setup with 175's or 190s'. Do an S362 and a S472 or something along those lines. There's no saying what would be "better" you can always just match the air for the fuel you have. Just size the turbos a little smaller and you'll have the best of both worlds, quick spool up and tons of air up top to clean up your 190's. I like the idea.

Also, I agree, Matt @ CED for the piping kits. He has some of the nicest compound setups I've seen.

 

[KCTurbos]

I have a few customers running compounds with a stage 2 vgt... they seem to love it but don't provide much actual data.

Later this year I plan to try it and spend a lot of time on the dyno testing and monitoring tunes... I will report what we find. I have always been a little disappointed in the data out there for vgt compounds. A lot of guys I know that ran it switch to non-vgt turbos afterwards... and then usually ended up going much bigger non-vgt turbos and much bigger injectors... I think a lot of guys get caught up in the chase for HP and keep switching setups.

 

[Extended Power]

...and then usually ended up going much bigger non-vgt turbos and much bigger injectors... I think a lot of guys get caught up in the chase for HP and keep switching setups.

Who would do such a thing? :lookaround:

 

[Countryboy07]

I was looking into building a stock VGT/S475 compound turbo set up years ago when I had my 6.0. It seemed that back then the consensus was that it would have way to high drive pressure and cause more problems than what it was worth. With the evolution of the VGT turbos being built today, it seems like they are holding up to much more abuse than they used to. I would be all over this if something proven would come about. The Duramax guys have been doing this successfully for some time, would love to see it on a 6.0

 

[KCTurbos]

IMO it has to be a tuning issue. Our turbos are almost identical to the duramax turbos. They do the whole stock vgt + s475 and love it.

 

[Six_Sloww]

I don't see why a gate wouldn't solve any drive pressure issues as well.

I agree with Charlie, I think most guys just get power hungry and the vgt would become a limitation somewhat quick unless it is a modified unit with a well setup wastegate... At which point it just becomes cost prohibitive.

 

[Mdub707]

MPD specifically tried marketing a kit using the stock VGT and a low pressure non VGT, they hyped it up and then it fell off. Not sure whatever happened with it. I don't think they gave up on it because they wanted more power though.

 

[Six_Sloww]

Or could have just been very little customer demand

 

[UpstateDieselGuy]

It's a shame because it would be a more budget friendly option if it worked. Both the Duramax and Cummins have add a turbo kits and have great success with them. The upside to the stock VGT setup would be the ability to use the EGR connection on the up-pipe for a waste gate to either feed the other turbo or dump to the atmosphere.

All that being said, tuning may be the issue. I beieve that the Duramax and Cummins both utilize Bosch PCM's and similar software. For instance, I seem to recall Kory Willis once saying that he commanded XX boost for a Cummins for a certain tune. They may be able to command a certain boost where as the Ford you ask it to do it and hope that it doesn't decide something different. That's how Ford's tuning was once explained to me.

 

[6.0 Tech]

Thanks for all the input. I checked out cutting edges website, and they got some nice stuff there. I dont know if its really gonna be able to talk me out of it though. However, from the first reply the cost of motor build may be the limiting factor.

Can anyone correct me on my tunng thinking here though. If i wasnt trying to go maxxed out and get every horse i could out of the setup, what would keep me from just throwing the big turbo on an already great tune and having at it? Ive been in several truck who were running tunes on stock fuel and air, and then throw a turbo on it, it still runs great like it did before, but is now less smokey and does pull better. I am not smart enough to tune for myself, so i was just curious. I am looking at this more for cleaning up a full fuel tune, rather than being pretty much the fastest thing at any stop light.

 

[Six_Sloww]

That's my vote.. Slap the turbo on it, keep it in a somewhat conservative tune and just enjoy it.

The trans won't last forever, but it all depends on how you drive it

 

[KCTurbos]

Thanks for all the input. I checked out cutting edges website, and they got some nice stuff there. I dont know if its really gonna be able to talk me out of it though. However, from the first reply the cost of motor build may be the limiting factor.

Can anyone correct me on my tunng thinking here though. If i wasnt trying to go maxxed out and get every horse i could out of the setup, what would keep me from just throwing the big turbo on an already great tune and having at it? Ive been in several truck who were running tunes on stock fuel and air, and then throw a turbo on it, it still runs great like it did before, but is now less smokey and does pull better. I am not smart enough to tune for myself, so i was just curious. I am looking at this more for cleaning up a full fuel tune, rather than being pretty much the fastest thing at any stop light.

What do you mean by... throwing on the big turbo? Bigger vgt? Bigger non-vgt single? Adding a bigger LP turbo in a compound setup?


Either way... are you asking whether or not you have to get your tune adjusted if you put on a bigger turbo. The short answer is yes. The cheapest part of that process will be the new tune, and probably the most important.




On a side note: 30% nozzles run cleaner down low, tow easier, and some even report spooling certain turbo setups faster.

The downside is that it can be harder to completely clean up and cool off the top end because your PW has to be extended so much past TDC to dump all the fuel that you are missing the "optimum" timing to dump and clean up all the fuel.

 

[6.0 Tech]

What do you mean by... throwing on the big turbo? Bigger vgt? Bigger non-vgt single? Adding a bigger LP turbo in a compound setup?


Either way... are you asking whether or not you have to get your tune adjusted if you put on a bigger turbo. The short answer is yes. The cheapest part of that process will be the new tune, and probably the most important.




On a side note: 30% nozzles run cleaner down low, tow easier, and some even report spooling certain turbo setups faster.

The downside is that it can be harder to completely clean up and cool off the top end because your PW has to be extended so much past TDC to dump all the fuel that you are missing the "optimum" timing to dump and clean up all the fuel.

Thanks for the explanation of the top end smoke. By throwing the big turbo on i was meaning adding yhe 475. As far as price, i agree that the tune would be the cheap part, but i was curious as most replies were talking about how hard the vgt/non vgt compound setup was to tune. This is just hypothetical at this point, i was just curious. I have never driven a non vgt, except for stockish 7.3s. I do however love the response of the vgt. This idea was brought up to me, and it sounded really good, especially since i am noat a fan of all the top end smoke.

 

[KCTurbos]

I would definitely get a new tune. Most tuners tend to slowly open the vanes on a standard vgt tune. Some even keep the vanes open to .25 or .30 because it brings up the boost/power... but with a big non-vgt turbo in front of that little vgt you are going to want the vanes to open MUCH SOONER and open all the way to .14... if not then your EBP will be crazy high and you will probably overspeed and blow up your vgt turbo.

 

[6.0 Tech]

Ok thanks for the clarification. Like i said, i dont tune my stuff, and aint sure im smart enough to start, just thinking out loud.