Pistons

[SDS97_7.3]

I really do love tacos.

Mmmm tacos, now Im hungry

 

[bigrpowr]

I really do love tacos.

 

[derrick36]

you are a ***king tard..how about that? you made it clear you arent willing to take a chance over $200 .... you're just being annoying, ad if you think for one second i would do you the service of ignoring you... only in your dreams. and ive taken a special interest in you now. here's where we're at:

1.you think people owe you an answer, they dont.

2. a company offered a product, you asked for them to prove it, they cant, but you wont accept that.

3. you would rather follow than lead, and are obviously afraid to take a chance.

4. you have a hard on for pistons, even though you know nothing about them and have never had a failure.

5. you have no plan of buying pistons anytime soon.

6. you must be hell on your wife on xmas.

You can do all the name calling, speculating, etc you want if it makes you feel better. I'm not going that route.

I'm happy you've taken a special interest in me instead of putting me on ignore. That ensures we'll always have an open line of communication.

 

[bigrpowr]

Good luck with your non build.

 

[Jhaddox]

sorry josh, i have no answer, as does nobody else. all facts possibly relevant to this case have been spoken, but you guys still want answers. nothing is gonna change here. now maybe we can make craig the martyr here in a conversation about pistons. shouldnt we just discuss carne asada or carnita tacos? it makes much better convo and brings more enjoyment to our daily lives.

p.s. we're discussing a $200 ***king upgrade vs a $5000 investment... talk about apples to oranges.... the difference is..craig had an oppportunity to prove it, here there is obviously no possible way of proving anything, ever.

I know how the answer game works, there wont be any until the product is ran by someone willing to take the chance

I was talkin to JD about these and if they were avail. in 20 over right now, they'd prob be going in my truck, but their not...im goin with machined pistons from Doug and having em hard coated...another process that hasn't exactly been proven yet, (the machining) because their not in trucks, Shane has a set but their not in anything yet, but from what Doug says it takes the weak spot away and stops the cracking.

Results/Testing in trucks wont really happen with most aftermarket parts in this industry because the capital simply isnt there to be thorough and make the cash back on your investment...These companies making parts aren't Edelbrock or huge companies...

At the end of the day it is a business and needs to make money

 

[derrick36]

Good luck with your non build.

Thanks man.

That means a lot coming from you.

 

[bigrpowr]

Josh-Now i see where you're coming from. You just made a decision on something yet to be proven. Good to know I'm not the only one willing to take a chance.

How much are these pistons costing since some people are crying over $200 ??

 

[Spatel23]

Results/Testing in trucks wont really happen with most aftermarket parts in this industry because the capital simply isnt there to be thorough and make the cash back on your investment...These companies making parts aren't Edelbrock or huge companies...

At the end of the day it is a business and needs to make money

Very well put! I agree.

Some parts can be tested easier than others can.

 

[Erikclaw]

Exactly, Josh is taking a chance that what Doug is saying is correct. This is not proven in any way but you are taking his word for it. I know how his selling works, likes to bash and talk crap and that is why I personally will not buy anything from him. But for this discussion we are all idiots for taking Tadds words as true.

 

[Erikclaw]

Carne asada are better than carnitas..

 

[semperfidooordie]

Carne asada is amazing! I think these pistons are worth the chance but what do I know? I was a dmax owner 6 months ago

 

[Jhaddox]

Josh-Now i see where you're coming from. You just made a decision on something yet to be proven. Good to know I'm not the only one willing to take a chance.

How much are these pistons costing since some people are crying over $200 ??

It can only go one of 2 ways...good or bad...and anything is better than stock


their costing me around the same as the new pistons with coating
the OEM pistons coated are about 200 cheaper, but machining the bowl makes them about dead even in cost with or without coating

 

[bigrpowr]

Exactly, Josh is taking a chance that what Doug is saying is correct. This is not proven in any way but you are taking his word for it. I know how his selling works, likes to bash and talk crap and that is why I personally will not buy anything from him. But for this discussion we are all idiots for taking Tadds words as true.

noo.... doug, stomp other vendors to make himself sound better.. never......

 

[MINK]

Sure has been alot non piston talk in here LOL

Thank the lord for tacos

 

[Fast-6.0]

It can only go one of 2 ways...good or bad...and anything is better than stock


their costing me around the same as the new pistons with coating
the OEM pistons coated are about 200 cheaper, but machining the bowl makes them about dead even in cost with or without coating

Out of curiousity what is the compression dropped to by cutting the lip out. 15 something I figure. Have you spoke with rudy on the cold blooded characteristics of low compression? like what his drag truck has

 

[Jhaddox]

Out of curiousity what is the compression dropped to by cutting the lip out. 15 something I figure. Have you spoke with rudy on the cold blooded characteristics of low compression? like what his drag truck has

honestly not to sure on what it is

 

[Fast-6.0]

I would recommend you call and find out. Part of the reason we have never fully removed the lip on stock pistons is because the lower compression and the cold drivability. Doing quick numbers I put you at lower 15's, if the lip is fully removed. Aaron's race truck is non-useable for quite a while during the warm-up process.

 

[Jhaddox]

I would recommend you call and find out. Part of the reason we have never fully removed the lip on stock pistons is because the lower compression and the cold drivability. Doing quick numbers I put you at lower 15's, if the lip is fully removed. Aaron's race truck is non-useable for quite a while during the warm-up process.

I'll have to look into it, thanks Tadd

 

[Heavyhaul]

If and when you melt a piston like myself. I guarantee I won't run the stock piston again for a couple of hunskis difference. More options! Perfect.

 

[Wayne]

Talk about beating a dead horse! You (derrick36) deserve some kind of award for finding different ways of asking the same questions over and over and over and over again!:jawdrop:

So then it is an OEM ford piston machined to Elite's specs?

I guarantee I know less than anyone on this board, so I hope you're not lumping me in with the group who "assumes" they know more.

One of the points I was trying to make earlier is that without a definitive number of when the stock pistons give out, you cannot say these are stronger. You can only say they're different. I'm sure you hope they're stronger, but if they're made out of the same material as the stockers there's no way of knowing whether they're better or worse.

One of your own employees pointed out the fact that there are stock pistons that are living just fine at 1000hp. Along with that, there are stockers or small tuned trucks(275hp or less) that have cracked pistons in the past. I don't think anyone has come up with a sure-fire recipe for why some crack and some don't.

Now you come along and tell us that these are stronger than the OEM versions. What proof do you have of that? Have you done any side-by-side testing? If so, what were the results?

If these are thought to be insurance to the OEM pistons, how do I know they're worth the extra $$$? Just because you're telling me they're machined differently?

I don't think you guys are trying to pull a fast one on the consumer by selling a product that isn't what it seems. I just think that your claim of a superior product might be a little premature without details as to why its better.

As of now they're not better and they're not worse. They're just different.

What is the strength of the OEM pistons? What is the definitive point where they let go? Just saying higher HP applications doesn't work. There are stock pistons in some pretty high HP applications as we speak. Didn't one member just break 1000 hp on fuel using stock pistons? How close is he to finding the limits of the OEM pistons?

Save what? What is wrong with looking for answers on a product that was just released to the consumer?

I feel like I'm being civil about things. I haven't done any name calling or said anyone was lying, nor have I said that these are an inferior product. If elite is going to sell something, they should be able to answer any and all questions about it.

Why not keep the conversation going so the rest of us can get answers. I don't think cutting off the conversation helps anyone whose interested.

I'm interested to see the results of your testing(just as much as I'm interested to see any new thing you try out, but that doesn't mean I don't have questions.

I can't just take things at face value.

And for the record, your truck and the other truck testing these doesn't prove anything as long as there are stock pistons out there that are living with higer HP numbers and have logged more miles.

Do you see how it isn't an accurate test?

The only thing it proves is that these different pistons work in your trucks...Period.

So that means that the 2 trucks that will be testing these probably aren't going to the the best representation as to why these are stronger...

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I'm sure the strength of these was tested through some sort of computer simulation program, but here we have real-world examples of the strength of the stock pistons.

How can you or anyone for that matter claim that their product is stronger without knowing the limits of whats already in place?

I understand they're machined with the intent of being stronger, but so far there hasn't been any proof, nor has there been any attempts of proving otherwise.

I feel like we keep going around in circles without getting any answers. Maybe that's because these are a brand new product and there hasn't been any testing as of yet, and maybe its because what we're being told and what is reality is two different things.

I don't know what the answer is but if you're going to throw something out there to discredit another product(OEM pistons)and make us believe that your product is the answer to a problem, maybe you should have some proof other than just saying they're stronger because we say they are.

I'm not unhappy by any means. I think its great that there are new products coming out for the 6.4. That does not mean I can't question the validity of the claims.

The only thing I know of Tadd is that I've seen his name in plenty of magazines. If I new him on a personal level, maybe I'd be able to push the "I believe" button. Because I'll probably never get the chance to meet him, nor does he probably care to meet me, I'll have to settle for seeking answers on these forums.

I definitely don't have an educated guess. Isn't that the best reason to ask questions?

As far as your coating question. I have no idea.

Honestly, until there is some sort of proof, I would take the ones that are tested and proven to the highest HP levels.

Which ones are those?

If there is no answer, why should I buy these? Because someone says they're better? I know there's no number. I also know there's no way(until proven)to say these are better.

It shouldn't be a remote chance that these questions are answered. We have an engineer and 2 well-to-do(and very respected)businesses working on these things. If there are answers, someone in the development process has them.

I don't believe Elite would put a product out that is unproven and untested and call it better for no reason other than to make a buck. Maybe I'm just not asking the right questions...

I understand the intent is there. I'm not disputing that at all. But intent, and actual data backing up the claim of "stronger" can be two different things.

How many high-hp rigs are running around filled with elite products? Maybe getting these pistons out to some of those customers for real-world testing BEFORE they claim their superiority is a better idea than claiming they're better without having proof.

I know that is a little far-fetched, but wouldn't it make more sense to buy a product based on facts instead of based on intent?

Does Elite sponsor any trucks? Could they have been shipped to those guys beforehand and put through real-world tests?

3 trucks is better than no trucks isn't it?

How they handle product testing definitely isn't up to me, but it seems like there might be better options than this.

I don't know how else to put this but there is ZERO proof that these are insurance other than Elite is telling us they are.

The money part is whatever. I definitely don't piss 100 dollar bills but $200 is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

All Im asking for is that the claim is backed up. I don't think that is too much ask is it?

I'm confused now.


This is the opposite of what Elite is saying.








What am I missing?

I don't doubt your answer...
I'm curious about the second one I quoted.

Well you've certainly done your homework. I'm interested to see what Elite has to say about this.

Your original post that I quoted is the one that I was questioning. It made the pistons sound as if they were completely scratch-made vs. OEM ones that were just improved upon.

Those are two totally different things.

I'm not sure your analogy works for what I'm saying. The way I took your post is that Mahle took an blank 6.4 piston(no bowl machined yet)and completely machined the bowl to Elite's specs from scratch.

What it seems like White_Monster is saying is that they take a Mahle OEM piston that is already machined for an OEM application and then machine it further to Elite's specs.

If I'm reading this wrong I apologize.

I'm definitely not calling anyone a liar but the 30% stonger claim seems a bit unsubstantiated if there is no evidence on the true strength of the stock pistons. How would someone even be able to gauge the 30%? Is there a definitive figure where the stock pistons let go? If there is and these let go at a 30% higher number I'll take it, but without that it just seems kinda made up.

On top of that, it looks like 2 people(Powerstroked162 & White_monster)have done their fare share of research on these pistons(just like anyone should whose looking to purchase a high-dollar item). What they're finding out and what the vendor who is selling the product are saying could end up being 2 different things. That's a pretty big deal if thats the case.




BTW, where did someone say "30% stronger"? I must have missed that.

Key word being "start". That still doesn't change things unless you have the highest HP truck or unless you've logged the most miles in a stocker. Its just an in-between figure where OEM pistons have been living for sometime now.

Trust me, this seems like an awesome idea. But without knowing at what level or why the stock pistons crack, I think these could've been released to the consumer differently.

Educate us why to why the stockers fail. THEN tell us why these are better. THEN prove it.

To this point I haven't seen that. They only thing I've seen is that these are different and therefore they're better.

If that question was directed at me. The HP numbers or simply the reasons why the stock pistons let go.

I haven't seen that yet.

It's been proven that the stock pistons can go pretty damn far, but its also proven that they crack in stock applications.

I don't understand why you want me to drop this. I know you have a vested interest into everything Elite, but I haven't done anything to tarnish their track record.

I'm simply asking questions due to two different things being said about the same product. I'm not entitled to anything. All I can do is hope that the other person/people on the other end of the internet that are selling these products will have some answers to my questions.

If I don't get those answers, I'm not going to complain, nor am I going to try and discredit anything the seller is doing.

But like I said earlier, I cannot just take someone's word for it if that same someone has no proof other than they're different.

I have no idea how you test it. That is the problem.
But if there is no test, how can the claim be thrown out that they're stonger. There is nothing backing that up.

I feel like I've said this 30 times so far.

I get that they were put through a stress test, but the stock pistons have also been put through SEVERAL stress tests.

I'm not taking any of this as a hit at me. No one has said anything derogatory or anything along those lines.

I don't think my questions are off-based or that I am asking for anything crazy.

My point is if there aren't clear answers as to why these are "better", don't tell us they are and just leave it at that.

Elite has the luxury of having plenty of customers waiting to snatch up every product they put their name on. Their track record and their reputation dictates that. Why not let some of those people try out their product BEFORE it is released to the general public? After they prove their worth, release the results of those tests. When that's done, sit back and wait for the profits to roll in.

That's easy. If the higher HP trucks run these, then Elite can come back and say that these are tested to X-number HP with spray/without spray etc.

If these are being run in Shone's truck, Rudy's truck, your drag truck, etc then they can say that they've been tested to whatever numbers those trucks are laying down. That holds more weight than just saying they're better because I said so.

Then it's not a faith based decision. It turns into one based off of fact.

I don't know if that those are numbers that the common person looking for a solution to a problem can relate to.

That ad wouldn't look very good in a magazine.

Ok, I'll take that back.

There is MINIMAL proof that these are better. I dont know what's all involved in a stress test on pistons but I'm envisioning some kind of computer program.

If that's the case, I'm sure the test is accurate but stress that these are actually put through in this stress test isn't anything that I can relate to.

I can relate to tests where they are put in high horsepower trucks or tests where they are ran for a substantial number of miles in stock or tuned form.

None of these things have been done to this point, but the claim of a superior product has been made.

That is why I'm questioning things.

Yes, there seems(key word)to be an advantage. I'm not debating that.

Honestly I don't know why you keep concerning yourself with my posts. We're clearly not on the same page, and neither of us is changing our stance. I've done my part to keep the thread on topic and I'm not saying anything negative towards you or Elite.

What is your reasoning for chiming in asking me to "drop it" or "get the *** on"? If you're annoyed by my actions, just put me on your ignore list. It won't hurt my feelings.

You can do all the name calling, speculating, etc you want if it makes you feel better. I'm not going that route.

I'm happy you've taken a special interest in me instead of putting me on ignore. That ensures we'll always have an open line of communication.

Looks like the speculation specialist needs a little help from captain obvious!:morons:

Time for a fact reminder:

Factory 6.4L Power Stroke stock pistons are built by Mahle

Elite's 6.4L Power Stroke performance pistons are designed and tested in conjunction with, and also built by Mahle from a new casting.

Do I need to go on about how just about every high HP 6.4 in existence has at least a few of Elite's parts, or just how credible Mahle is? I could. Their website is full of interesting facts like how they're been building performance pistons since 1920, and they did about 7 BILLION dollars in sales last year, etc., etc.

Basic reasoning skills should key you into the fact that these are better than stock seeing as how the best name in the 6.4L performance industry, and the manufacturer of the Ford factory pistons have come together specifically to make a piston for performance applications.

I've summarized all the answers/ facts you'll be getting just short of buying one yourself, and comparing it to a stock unit. Good luck on deciding for yourself if the pistons are actually better in performance applications than stock units.

The new HD piston from mahle that we offer is much stouter. It has a thicker lip, and much more meat in the bowl. With being coated and all, I dont see why they wont be at least as reliable as any other piston on the market.

Heres a link to the thread.
http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8170

We did not go through ford to get them. We went through mahle. If mahle is going to use this for new stock pistons, its an after thought from what Im told. I wasnt trying to mislead anyone at all. My biggest point was this was a newly designed piston, changed from the "stock" that all of us are used to seeing: with the pyramid in the bowl and thin protruding lip. New design, not the same piston altered.

Yes new bowl design... are you saying there is some other problem with this piston?

Ok. Just the way I see it, these are the same pistons that EVERY 6.4 runs. Including the fastest powerstroke on the planet, Shone's truck, Montrellas, etc. There are so many trucks over 1k horse on bone stock pistons its nuts. For a factory spec piston which is obviously developed with cost in mind, it does damn good. There maybe a little room for improvement, sure, but I wouldnt go as far as to say its a BAD piston. I see the biggest weakness in the piston being the bowl... and it appears as if that could be a thing of the past. 99% of the population will never have an interest or a need for anything more than what this piston will handle.

The psiton is still a mahle piston, so any way you slice it, it will most likely have similarities. But it is a differently designed piston. This is like calling the 6.4 an improved upon 6.0...

I have held both of these pistons in my hand. I can tell you that they are not the same piston that has been machined. They are a differently cast piston.

The piston is a different casting. It was engineered for higher horsepower. There are people on this forum who are trying to act like they know more than they do, they are assuming and you know what they say when people assume.

What kind of proof do you want?

Elite is known for not so great customer service, and we dont claim to have the best customer service (even though were working on it). Elite is not known for claiming something about our product and having it not be true. When we say the turbos will make 800 hp then they will. When we say this piston is a stronger design, then it is. When we say it is not a remachined oem piston (likes others claim) then it is not. Don't believe us, then don't buy the pistons. Or believe us and get the pistons, compare them to stockers and then realize that a few people on this thread aren't as knowledgeable as they pretend to be. Nuff said!

On another note, I don't know where the 30% stronger came from? Plain and simple the piston was designed for more power and if you need new pistons why not get something engineered to be stronger? Will this piston be going into all of our motors? Yes!

They are a new cast, they have more meat in the right places. They were engineered for higher horsepower and higher injection pressures.

How can we say they are stronger?

Just like anything that is engineered and then re-engineered. The pistons that were cracking were examined, the original design was run through stress simulation with attention paid to where the cracks are occuring. Then the design was changed to reduce these stress areas and rerun through stress simulation. After a few hundred different tries, a final design is decided upon. From there they are cast to meet the new design. I realize this is real simple but that is how it is done. They were engineered to not crack where the current pistons do. If they dont exhibit the weak stress areas of the current piston then wouldn't you agree they are stronger than the oem.[/QUOTE]

Because many of the cracks are actually developing within the bowl, not on the lip. Hence the bowl redesign.

Comparing Elite's with a modified stocker:

I would recommend you call and find out. Part of the reason we have never fully removed the lip on stock pistons is because the lower compression and the cold drivability. Doing quick numbers I put you at lower 15's, if the lip is fully removed. Aaron's race truck is non-useable for quite a while during the warm-up process.

Nuff said!

Hopefully this helps.